Author Topic: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running  (Read 887 times)

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Offline DanishZebra

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So long story short, I bought several boxes of motorcycle bits last year and was told by the PO that "there is a CB750K in there somewhere". It has been a fantastic year of working my way through a ground up restoration and seeing her come to life.

The bike frame is a K2, with a K5 engine. My current dilemma is that after turning the bike on and attempting to switch from neutral to 1st there is a horrible crunching gears sound and I am unable to get it in gear. After doing some research in this forum I discovered that the clutch is not disengaging when I pull the clutch lever in. I tested this by rocking the bike back and forth in 1st / 2nd gear with the clutch lever in and observed that the clutch hadn't been opened up to allow the bike to roll freely, it is still in gear.

I'm confident that I have installed the clutch cable correctly, and adjusted both the cable and central adjustment screw in the clutch cover. I even turned the central adjustment screw all the way in, and this still didn't open up the clutch.

What I have checked:
- clutch center unit and pressure plate line up correctly (ensuring that the pressure plate slots in to the centre unit)
- 7 fiber friction disks (these came in the boxes but appear to be fine) they have straight grooves, not the 45 degree grooves
- 6 steel clutch plates are in good condition
- outer clutch basket is part number 22100-300-020 with a steel band going around the lip of the basket
- clutch springs are ~35mm
- the "spline" doesn't have a  circlip, I have made sure to follow the diagram that has the "wider" washer, and i've also checked I installed the washer that sits between the basket and clutch center.

Tests I have done:
- back and forth rocking in gear with clutch in. Confirmed clutch hasn't disengaged and I can hear the engine wanting to turn over
- bike on center stand, clutch lever plate removed, and clutch pressure plate "loose" in the basket, can rotate the rear wheel freely whilst in 1st gear (this test removes the friction between the outer basket and clutch center, recreating a "clutch lever in" scenario.

I have 3 theories I'd like some guidance on:
1. Incorrect parts: are the clutch springs the right length? is the clutch pressure plate fingers the right length? Have I used the right amount of friction discs and clutch plates?

2. Friction discs old and sticky: With the clutch lever plate off, i should in theory be able to rotate the inner hub that the steel pressure plates slot in to, it is very firm against the friction plates, even slight amount of pressure between the pressure plate and the "centre,clutch" and I cant turn it.

3. I used 10W-40 semi synthetic oil, this could also possibly be creating too much stickiness. But given the complete lack of being able to disengage the clutch at any setting of the clutch cable, i dont think this is the core issue.

Any ideas?




« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 04:43:04 AM by DaneHitchins »

Offline bryanj

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2022, 05:57:46 AM »
There were a few mods through the years and unless you have all the bits from the same year you get problems, not done 750 for years but i am sure Hondaman will be able to help
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline Tim2005

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2022, 07:49:46 AM »
Are the 3 balls installed in the lifter mechanism?

Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2022, 10:11:06 PM »
Yes they are installed.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2022, 10:04:35 AM »
Perhaps wrong clutch cover? 77/78 required change from the previous years due to the final clutch update (wider double steel in the middle)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2022, 03:26:06 PM »
Hi Jerry,


I've attached a photo of the spline (none circlip variety) and also the basket. Do these look correct?

What can I measure / visually check to confirm whether I have the correct component? There was talk of the fingers of the pressure plate being different lengths depending on which year.

I have two transmission covers, one with the little nodule near the kick start lever, and one without. I had the cover with the nodule installed.

Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2022, 06:01:35 PM »
Another quick trip to the garage to measure a few of the parts, and I found something interesting.

With the basket installed on the spline, I installed the inner hub.

First photo shows a ridge between the inner hub and the spline when the larger spline washer is installed between the basket and inner hub.

Second photo shows a "flush" fit between the inner hub and basket when I remove the large spline washer.

Could the problem be that I need to use the small spline washer? I didn't think my spline used the smaller washer as it doesn't use the circlip and doesn't look like a later model spline.


Offline HondaMan

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2022, 04:59:10 PM »
Another quick trip to the garage to measure a few of the parts, and I found something interesting.

With the basket installed on the spline, I installed the inner hub.

First photo shows a ridge between the inner hub and the spline when the larger spline washer is installed between the basket and inner hub.

Second photo shows a "flush" fit between the inner hub and basket when I remove the large spline washer.

Could the problem be that I need to use the small spline washer? I didn't think my spline used the smaller washer as it doesn't use the circlip and doesn't look like a later model spline.



Your upper picture here is the correct view.
Now, you need to add the cupped washer (thick bowed washer) onto the mainshaft to capture the basket with spring tension, and then apply the locktab and the nut to hold it down. The hollow side of the cupped washer goes toward the engine.

With the 2 clutches being different between the K2 and K5, it is possible you might have the wrong clutch hub and/or stack of plates. The K5 engines had a double-steel plate in the stack (usually the first steel plate, found under the special top clutch plate which had slant-cut cork blocks on it). The special top plate has wider outer fingers on it to engage just the top ends of the cluch basket's fingers. If your clutch basket fingers do NOT have the notched slots at their outer ends (i.e., closest to you), then it is the K2 clutch hub. In that case, you don't use the dual-sprung steel plate at all.

The K2 clutch is simply 7 friction plates and 6 steel ones, all the same types.
The K5 clutch has 6 plates similar to the K2 clutch plates, plus 1 (top plate) that has wider outer tabs. If it is the OEM plate the corks will cut in a parallelogram (some say 'rhombic') shape, or if it is a proper aftermarket plate it will just have the wider outer tabs.

If you swap the K2 clutch basket in, you can use the K2 clutch, and vice-versa.

Can you supply a picture of the outer ends of the clutch hub's "fingers"?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2022, 05:33:19 PM »
Hi HondaMan!

In the photo are the two clutch baskets I have. The one with the steel band I had installed. They look identical except for the metal band. Are both these baskets from the earlier years (k2?)



Offline HondaMan

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2022, 07:04:57 PM »
Hi HondaMan!

In the photo are the two clutch baskets I have. The one with the steel band I had installed. They look identical except for the metal band. Are both these baskets from the earlier years (k2?)


Well...neither of those clutch baskets are for the K5, so I'd suggest using the one with the band on it, for the extra strength and smoothness that will bring you in the end. That one is like the K1-K4 (pre-3/74) type and is pretty universal in the early engines.

With the basket installed on the spline, I installed the inner hub.

First photo shows a ridge between the inner hub and the spline when the larger spline washer is installed between the basket and inner hub.

Could the problem be that I need to use the small spline washer?

I've attached a parts picture of the tranny: it shows the washer you're asking about. It is about 1mm thick, has a rounded side and a flat side to it, and some (most) have little splines in the center. This one goes on the shaft BEFORE the clutch basket goes in, rounded side toward the engine. The reason is: you should also have a cupped washer: it, and then the locktab, and then the fancy nut (beveled side toward engine) will lock the basket against this washer to the mainshaft. The general idea is: you want to torque the fancy nut down on the beveled (spring) washer so it holds the basket under tension against the mainshaft, but not so tight that you flatten the cup washer (that much torque can strip the mainshaft's threads!). This will position the basket relative to the clutch lifter so that the pieces will work together when you screw down the clutch cover. Lock the center nut with one of the locktabs.

Assemble the steel plates and fiber plates onto the hub (install them in the basket) and install the top spring retainer: make SURE the splines in the hub align with the splines of the pressure plate (#7 in the Clutch picture) or else you can break off the thread lugs in the presure plate when tightening the four 6mm bolts. Tighten them 1 turn each in a cross pattern while tightening them down, until they snug tight. (Hint: ensure all the steel plates have their rounded outer edge on the same side, either toward or away from the engine: Honda OEM was toward the engine, but both will work.)

Now...about the clutch lifter: the screw in the lifter arm works like this: with the cover installed (including the gasket) snugly, you can test the "reach" of the clutch lifter by adjusting that center screw in/out until you feel it hit the (assembled) clutch lifter. Here's the potential 'fly in the ointment' here: in the attached picture of the Clutch you can see that part #10 came in 2 types (notice the Parts List on the right side of the picture): this is related to whether the steel clutch plate #6 in that picture is comprised of 2 steel plates riveted together, or just one ordinary steel plate. The part #10 changes in thickness to make up the difference. I suggest using normal steel plates, omitting the fancy double-plate, as by now the rivets in the double-plate have become loose enough to cause other annoying problems that you probably don't want...BUT - if your #10 part is from a clutch that had the double-steel plate in it, and your clutch now doesn't have that plate, the center lifter might be too short by 2mm, making it almost impossilbe to adjust the lifter to reach the hub when the clutch is pulled in: you can tell if it is reaching it by adjusting the clutch lifter (on the assembled clutch cover) in/out until you feel it hit the hub (or not). Turn it CCW to extend it in toward the engine. If it makes contact, bravo, it will work: turn it until it touches the lifter, then back up 1/8 turn or so to make sure it isn't riding against it all the time. If it can't reach the lifter, then you need to find the other one in your parts collection: it will be taller (thicker) and go to the trouble of installing it instead.

When it's all fitted together right: you can adjust the clutch cable's arm with the cover tightened down on the gasket (use at least 4 screws around the cover to test things, then all of them before final adjustment) so that the end of the lifter arm moves about 0.5cm before it comes up against the clutch lifter inside. That's about right: there should be a flat washer under the nut on the arm.

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2022, 08:05:41 PM »
Thank you Hondaman for the info and diagrams. I did not realize i was missing that 1mm washer before the clutch basket is installed!

So in terms of assembly order and things to watch out for, starting from the naked spline (with no circlip groove)

1. washer 90458-506-810 (1mm thick small washer as per tranny diagram you attached)
2. clutch basket (my original one with steel reinforcement ring)
3. spline washer 90432-300-000 (25mm spline washer, the bigger one of the two washers that can go here)
4. clutch plate (with 4 fingers for bolts)
5. 7 fiber and 6 steel rings (alternating starting with fiber ring)
6. clutch center (this sits directly on the 25mm spline washer)
7. cup washer 90481-292-000 (concave facing engine, convex outward)
8. lock washer 90431292000
9. nut with bevel facing engine
10. 4 x springs on
11. lifter plate with 4 bolts (1 turn each in cross pattern until snug and touching the fingers)

to check:
- if center lifter is correct (I want the taller / thicker one as i'm using the 7 fibre and 6 steel set up, without the double steel plate)


I will order the transmission washer 90458-506-810, and commence reinstall! Hopefully this fixes it. I'll make sure to update this page as well as I'm sure someone else may find this discussion very useful.

Dane



Offline bryanj

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2022, 09:26:18 PM »
Dont forget to make sure the back plate with posts fits to the centre correctly as i remember it 2 ways are ok the other 2 ways stop the plate splines engaging with centre splines and you break the posts off when tightening bolts
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline DanishZebra

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2022, 09:48:38 PM »
will definitely ensure this is installed correctly! Thanks bryanj

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2022, 07:39:57 PM »
I think I just realized these updated parts pictures from Honda have a confusing point in them: they show the spline washer in such a way that it looks like it goes inside the clutch basket. The spline washer goes onto the mainshaft FIRST, then the clutch basket. The cupped washer then holds the clutch basket against that spline washer as you tighten the nut. Be sure to install the cupped washer with the hollow side toward the engine so it acts like a [strong] sprung hold-down. The spline washer will space that basket outward so that there is a small step to the end of the mainshaft's boss to make the cup washer act like a spring to hold it onto that shaft.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: Mystery clutch basket on K5 and unable to disengage clutch when running
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2022, 10:27:25 PM »
 ^ I remember being confused by that pic a long time ago myself.
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