Author Topic: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?  (Read 2585 times)

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Offline JDrider

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Will I regret removing my points or is this the way to go?
1975 Honda Cb550k1
Thanks,
JD
1975 CB550K1

Offline rocket johnny

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2022, 11:14:58 AM »
go with hondamans ignition and keep your points as back up

Offline 69cb750

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2022, 11:19:10 AM »
EI, you get to experience breakdowns miles from home testing your ability to deal with situations like this and see if you can limp home.
If it doesn't kill you it will make your stronger, and this will make you stronger and now a message from our ei fans.

Offline JDrider

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2022, 12:48:59 PM »
EI, you get to experience breakdowns miles from home testing your ability to deal with situations like this and see if you can limp home.
If it doesn't kill you it will make your stronger, and this will make you stronger and now a message from our ei fans.

Do you mean I will break down more with EI?
JD
1975 CB550K1

Offline cfairweather

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2022, 03:14:21 PM »
Points are ancient history for many good reasons.  Auto and motorcycle manufactures got rid of points over 40 years ago. That is proof enough that they are the way to go.  Electronic ignitions are very reliable and will improve your bikes performance.  With points, shortly after you have everything perfectly tuned, the points get pitted and the timing is not where it needs to be.  Then you get to start all over and set them again, over and over.  With an electronic system, you set it and forget it.  A Dyna clone for your bike costs about $50.00 and the Dyna clone coils are about $40.00 a pair.  It is a no brainer.  I will say, if you use Hondaman's electronic system, which uses the points, that is an acceptable solution.



Offline MauiK3

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2022, 03:22:13 PM »
Hondaman's ignition uses the points as a low voltage trigger only. His box then does the rest of the work. If for some reason the box fails you just re connect the points and you are on your way, built in redundancy.
Plus, the box is reliable


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Offline JDrider

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2022, 03:35:44 PM »
If you do go electric ignition do you have to replace the coils?
JD
1975 CB550K1

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2022, 04:17:11 PM »
I run points on all my cb750’s. I enjoy “tuning” them, setting dwell and getting total advance just right on both sets...... Having said that, I fitted a lovely electronic ignition system from Electronik Sasche, on my Benelli SEI. Their system does not require a coil change and works extraordinarily well. I was frustrated by the tiny space I had for three sets of points and condensers and the ridiculous price of the poorly made parts that were available for that bike. Use the solution that works best for you.

Offline tlbranth

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2022, 04:56:28 PM »
I'll second the Hondaman box suggestion. Yes, electronic ignition is the way of things these days but I don't trust aftermarket stuff. With points, finding an ignition problem is a cinch. Not so with electronic. I chuck out ignition problem advice willy-nilly on the NGW site ...... unless electronics is involved. Then it's all guesswork. With the Hondaman box you get reliability, an easy plan B if a problem is encountered and pretty much solid timing i.e. the points don't pit. It's been my experience that the rubbing block on OEM points wears a bit straight away but then burnish and stop wearing. So with a Hondaman box and broken-in points you can time once and forget.
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Offline andy750

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2022, 05:04:19 PM »
Ive had a Dyna S EI on my CB750K4 for 20 years - never had to be towed home due to EI failure. Just one user experience yours may differ. I would try it and see if it works for you.
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
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Offline Dunk

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2022, 06:43:24 PM »
I have dozens of thousands of miles on two Dyna units on CB750s, and probably 1k miles on an electronic pickup setup on a CB350 twin, no issues or failures. =Reliable enough for my commuter bikes.

The disadvantages on the Dyna are that it's inefficient with electrical consumption. Uses more watts. I ran one with 3 ohm coils for many years and so long as the battery was not too old and the electrical connections were all clean and tight it worked great. The bike would stall when coming to a stop after longer rides with the headlight on when the battery got weak, and require occasional cleaning and tightening of the bullet connectors from the stator. Changed to 5 ohm coils and never another problem, no noticeable difference in performance, or cold weather starting. I always kick start all my bikes, use the electric start once every year or few to be sure it still works.

My cold weather daily rider, a CB750 K5, has Dyna and 5 ohm coils and I use heated gloves. I know the battery is always bordering on dead in the winter since glove heat is weak at idle or above 5000 RPM... Which jives with what I've read about the Dyna pickups being inefficient particularly at higher RPM. The 500/550 has less alternator watts so that may be a consideration.

Offline PeWe

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2022, 10:10:26 PM »
Coils and cables might be old and need to be replaced regardless of stock points or Dyna-S type ignition.

An old perfect stock bike with points can be a good combo. Point ignition is part of the bike.

Hondaman's ignition is an improvement when using good points as TEC. Plate and points.
The points weak point is the condensors. TEC will live longer.
Hondaman's ignition can run without but you might get misfires at higher revs. My bike had that. Condensors fixed that.

If you frequently are in need to take the ignition off due to engine tear downs or aftermarket cam timings, Dyna is easier.
Just mark with a pen how it sat before removal and put it back.

My tuned K6 had some points issues on dyno at higher revs. More stable with Dyna-S.
(Old trick with double springs on points might have helped)

I think it was the older type of Dyna-S that could fail. 2:3 could suddenly die.
Important that regulator is properly adjusted so charging voltage will not be too high.

Modern batteries have charging voltage needs too. GEL should not get much over 14.2V, AGM need ca: 14.7/8V. The old wet type batteries something between.

The stock regulator designed for regulating max 14.5.

I bought a set of Dyna-S 3 ohms coils and Dyna HT leads (graphite).
At first ride I notice how quick battery drained despite riding in good charging speed. Headlight on. I switched off during the ride when I noticed weak starter
Went back to shoo where I could trade couls back to Dyna 5 ohms.

One HT lead did not work properly either, intermittent ign off. Copper leads us better.
I use stiff model which will sit better in coils. Soft ones can easier slide out of the Dyna coils. When washing  or heavy wind. Happened me many times. Cyl 1 especially.

My K6 had 107.5whp the last 2 dyno runs. Dyna-S, Dyna 5 ohm coils and very important, adjusted advancer springs, cut almost 1 wound to ensure sping tension on rotor from the very beginning.
This ensure stable engine from Idle to 9500 rpm.

Not fun to ride the bike if not running well from 1200 -3000 rpm.
I prefer 1200rpm idle, easier to ride.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 09:27:22 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline CB750R

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2022, 11:26:21 PM »
I’ve had dyna s for 15 trouble free years. Put dyna coils and new plug wires on at some point after the stock cables arc’d out on me in the wet.

Offline MauiK3

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2022, 07:56:42 AM »
Off topic
Yes, 1200 rpm idle or perhaps a little lower seems better than under 1000. I know, I know, if everything is perfect it will idle at 900 easily but how long is everything perfect? I'm around 1100 to 1200 most of the time.
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Offline Stev-o

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2022, 02:38:29 PM »
Off topic
Yes, 1200 rpm idle or perhaps a little lower seems better than under 1000. I know, I know, if everything is perfect it will idle at 900 easily but how long is everything perfect? I'm around 1100 to 1200 most of the time.

Whats so good about a low idle? I like a high idle, around 1500!  Dont have to give as much throttle to take off.  I dont ride in stop & go traffic so my bikes dont idle a lot.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2022, 05:32:59 PM »
I use Pamco and I am very happy with it.  Dorothy ran on Pamco for 25 000 miles, Red is not far behind - Pamco since 2015. 
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Offline Bodi

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2022, 07:00:13 PM »
Points work fine but they do wear which changes timing, and they eventually wear out. But that takes a lot of miles and hours running. Proven simple technology. Getting good replacement points sets is not so easy though. So depending on miles ridden, a quick check and minor adjustment with a timing light, probably annually, is all that's needed.

The fact that they are almost entirely obsolete is due to economics and pollution regulations, not simply "EI is better". Electronic parts are dirt cheap in the quantities a manufacturer orders.
The mechanical points have several precision metal and insulating parts that have to be produced then the assembly has to be put together. Expensive processes.
Having electronic ignition controlled by an ECM allows the ignition timing to be continuously adjusted in conjunction with the fuel injection and VVT to get the cleanest burn possible, meeting tightening pollution regulations.
There's also the cost of maintenance, having a low TCO is important to the marketing team. An annual tune-up used to be expected, new cars seem to only need oil changes to stay running fine for years and years.

But remember we do not have new bikes with all the electronic bells and whistles, ours are inexorably aging from classic to antique. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty doing basic maintenance with wrenches and screwdrivers ... just stay with the points system. It doesn't take a lot of time or effort. (And if you don't like that dirty work, sell the old one and get a new bike with a warranty).

I have a Martek 440 EI on my 400, installed so many years ago I can't recall. Around 1980. I carried the OEM points set with me for a year or two "just in case" but never needed them. I don't put a lot of miles on now but the EI has never hiccuped, I check the timing every 2 years or so and it hasn't budged.
On the CB77 I put an EI unit I found through CB77.com (pretty much a dead site now) and it has also had zero problems.

The cons... many do use more power. Points are open for about half of a revolution. The easiest way (used by Dyna S and the Martek, probably others) is to have an optical or magnetic triggered electronic switch that opens the coil circuit when the trigger activates it. That is a very small fraction of a revolution though, so overall power load is higher. For the small fours (350 & 400) there is very very little excess power available from the alternator. If you also have a higher than stock wattage headlamp and don't do mostly highway riding your battery is likely never reaching full charge. I suggest using 5 Ohm coils - either stock or aftermarket - on the small fours. 3 Ohm coils will be too much load, and the "extra spark voltage" is part myth... and definitely not needed.
Some more expensive EI units have a dwell function independent from the trigger, and many offer various advance curves and have rev limiter functions.
Hondaman's ignition module uses your points as the trigger, and the dwell is set from the points so it's pretty much stock electrical draw (the electronics draw is miniscule). Without the spark erosion from directly switching a coil, the points contacts last essentially forever. The mechanical bits do need some attention, a bit of oil on the pivots and some grease on the cam. The springs and other mechanical parts don't last forever ... but almost. If something weird happens and the electronics fails, you can bypass the module and be back running directly on the points is a few minutes. Ideal for the belt plus suspenders gang.

Offline dave500

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2022, 12:24:03 AM »
look at any modern car or bike,they are all electronic everything!how many cars or bikes you see broken down road side?not many?

Offline Little_Phil

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2022, 02:44:53 AM »
Modern cars and bikes are made in there tens/hundreds of thousands by big name companies and parts supplied by big names. Aftermarket systems for vintage bikes are made in smaller numbers by smaller suppliers. Probably done hundred thousand ++ miles with points (since the 70s) and never had a complete breakdown. But plenty of time spent with the strobe light at home.
Had an aftermarket system on a Guzzi that failed. The free replacement system got adapted and transferred to my Z650 and currently now on a CB500 for the past 18 years!

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2022, 09:54:15 AM »
100% of all the electronic ignitions out there today (except mine, but more on this below...) will use more electrical power than your 550 can even generate. This results in a chronically low/dead battery. With the Dyna S (as one example) aboard, the charging system doesn't break even to start charging the battery until 4000+ RPM as the Dyna triggers are ON all the time except during the brief moment they are triggered by the magnet. This also reduces coil output, so Dyna made coils with higher voltage that use EVEN MORE power, which results in...a CB550 for sale - with electrical problems.

This was why, in 1973, I developed a Transistorized Ignition for these bikes, now known here in the forums as the Hondman's Ignition. It was made expressly to solve this problem, plus stop the constant maintenance needed for high-mileage-daily SOHC4 riders (back when we all rode them to work, school, etc., in lieu of a car). It uses slightly less than 0.1 amp of extra power over the points-only system, so even the little CB350F can use it. And, it stops the constant points maintenance, letting them live nearly forever. I went from 2006 until 2013 on the same set of cheap Daiichi points in my 750 as the test rig to prove it out. That was somewhere near 20k miles, IIRC.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2023, 06:58:19 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline JDrider

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2022, 09:59:44 AM »
Yes, I was going to go this route with your ignition system after reading the reply’s and reading up on your magic box. Thanks!


100% of all the electronic ignitions out there today (except mine, but more on this below...) will use more electrical power than your 550 can even generate. This results in a chronically low/dead battery. With the Dyna S (as one example) aboard, the charging system doesn't break even to start charging the battery until 4000+ RPM as the Dyna triggers are ON all the time except during the brief moment they are triggered by the magnet. This also reduces coil output, so Dyna made coils with higher voltage that use EVEN MORE power, which results in...a CB550 for sale - with electrical problems.

This was why, in 1973, I developed a Transistorized Ignition for these bikes, now known here in the forums as the Hondman's Ignition. It was made expressly to solve this problem, plus stop the constant maintenance needed for high-mileage-daily SOHC4 riders (back when we all rode them to work, school, etc., in lieu of a car). I uses slightly less than 0.1 amp of extra power over the points-only system, so even the little CB350F can use it. And, it stops the constant points maintenance, letting them live nearly forever. I went from 2006 until 2013 on the same set of cheap Daiichi points in my 750 as the test rig to prove it out. That was somewhere near 20k miles, IIRC.
JD
1975 CB550K1

Offline dave500

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2022, 11:00:47 PM »
"100% of all the electronic ignitions out there today (except mine, but more on this below...) will use more electrical power than your 550 can even generate."

Thats drawing a pretty long bow,i can charge at idle with headlight on running the boyer unit,the dynas have a fairly heavy draw to them.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2022, 12:53:50 AM »
100% of all the electronic ignitions out there today (except mine, but more on this below...) will use more electrical power than your 550 can even generate.
That statement is wrong. Millions have proved you can run an EI and even a 55/60Watts H4 on our bikes without a problem. It depends which. Dyna's maybe a problem with a ridiculous dwell nobody needs. But most products are fine to use. I'd wish you'd stop scaring people. It's Ok if you run a business here, but do it fairly. BTW rules on this in the European fora are much stricter. You wouldn't be allowed to advertise in the forum. But here, like in the rest of the US, there's no escaping from advertising and propaganda. We in Europe watch the results of that spreading false information with horror.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2022, 01:29:24 AM »
Delta, while you accuse HondaMan of exaggerating your own statements are exaggerating as well… ‘millions’ is a gross exaggeration…

There have Not been millions of CB SOHC4 bikes running around with other EI solutions without issue.
So, you wanna be fair, then stop your own exaggerating…

Your use case is different, all American bikes must run headlamps at all times, that fact alone consumes a lot of the charging system capacity. The CB500 and CB550 do not have a lot of excess capacity, another fact.
The operating conditions and time spent running at speeds that will allow charging have to be met, apparently US bikes have enough of an issue with those conditions as it can be problematic for 500-550 use here when they don’t see lots of high rpm use to keep the battery from requiring some battery charger maintenance from time to time.

David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: What are the advantages/disadvantages to switching to electronic ignition?
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2022, 03:03:39 AM »
Ok.millions is an exaggeration. On the other hand, if you'd count the numerous points using Suzuki's, Kawa's and Yamaha's, you'll probably come close. In the past I have given lots of advice to conquer this 'American depleting issue'. Do a search using terms like bulbs, relay and Deltarider. You may be surprised. Right now I'm working on a friend's XS650 3NO (F0) that has all kinds of nonsensical extra's like lighting safety switching devices. Things nobody needs which only do good in advertisements. As it is a US model, the first thing we did, was remove the headlamp fuse, so for the time being, we can work in peace. His bike had already the Bosch H4 reflector which is good. Unfortunately it's the US model reflector, so it lacks the socket for a Ba9s pilot lamp bulb, which you can so easily turn into a DRL by using a 21Watts halogen Ba9s. Like my model has, he wants everything switched manually. No hanky panky, but common sense. I showed him the arrangement I made a couple of years ago to first test what I was going to advice the forum here and the American members in particular. Do a search with the word 'tunnel' and it's all there. Works a dream!
Back to the EI. Long before Hondaman started promoting his ignition box, I had already one, made myself. Nothing to bragg about, as mine was a copycat of an already exiting kit. The first one was on a Peugeot 504GL that successfully crossed the Sahara desert. Mine is in use for some 25 years now. If you do a search you can see why I wanted this particular EI. The extra power for the device irself is around 0,15A. I hope we can agree that 2 Watts in use, is nothing to worry about. Also I've tested why it is, I have no problem runnng my EI, 3 Ohm coils and the 55/60 Watts H4 my bike even came standard (!) with. Do a search using the words 'ammeter' and Deltarider. Lots of advice.
I can not detect anything special about the Boyer & Bransden. A double name using '&' is always a clever marketing strategy, adding 'Royal' even more.
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