Author Topic: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions  (Read 1102 times)

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Offline denward17

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1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« on: December 22, 2022, 03:08:13 PM »
I took my head/cylinders off today because of some leak down test numbers.  The worst was the #4 exhaust valve.

Looking at the pictures attached, do you think just a lap job would fix this?

I haven't checked the valve to valve guide clearance yet, according to manual on exhaust valve it should be no more than .08mm.

Does the measurement come from the edge of the valve or the stem?

Engine has 22k miles, should I  be ok on the guides?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 03:11:08 PM by denward17 »

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2022, 06:22:39 PM »
 The wear depends entirely on oil changes and maintenance. That intake looks really pitted or is that just oil and carbon?
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2022, 02:37:43 AM »
Look like oil in chambers.
Are all chambers like that?
Are guides ok?
Put valve in, leave it 10-15mm out, grip dish with fingers and wiggle it sideways.
You should not feel any play. Only a kind of softness.

If ok, seals might leak.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2022, 02:51:24 AM »
The combustion dome and intake port look pretty coked/carbon-ed up…
Head is due for tlc and a refurbishment…
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Offline denward17

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2022, 06:19:46 AM »
Look like oil in chambers.
Are all chambers like that?
Are guides ok?
Put valve in, leave it 10-15mm out, grip dish with fingers and wiggle it sideways.
You should not feel any play. Only a kind of softness.

If ok, seals might leak.

This is the worst chamber, the valve does move a little bit back and forth, but I haven't measured yet.

If I have to have guides replaced, do I have to replace the valves as well?

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2022, 06:36:13 AM »
Not necessarily, check for stem wear and size plus wear on the collet grooves, you do have to have the seats recut though
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Offline denward17

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2022, 08:26:53 AM »
Where do I measure from?

The combustion chamber side?

Dial gauge against the stem?

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2022, 08:38:20 AM »
There is a measurement speced for valve "waggle" in the guide somewhere in the honda manual
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline 70CB750

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2022, 03:30:02 PM »
There is a measurement speced for valve "waggle" in the guide somewhere in the honda manual

Or in Hondaman's book. 
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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2022, 12:04:59 PM »
The guides wear in a flare toward the combustion chamber and at the rocker's side: i.e., they are more worn at the chamber side and the top than in the middle. So, Honda specs this by declaring the "wiggle" amount, which takes in both situations in one measurement. Lift the valve about 1/4" off the seat and wiggle it toward the center of the combustion chamber and away from the chamber's center to see the maximum wear: subtract the standard clearance of 0.0012" (intake) and 0.0018" (exhaust) from your reading to see what the wear value actually has become. If it wiggles more than 0.006" (intakes) or 0.008" (exhaust) the valve guide is done. Chances are, the valves are fine and can be reconditioned (aka "reground").

And, being one of the F2/3 engines with more than 10k miles on it, I'd bet the guides are finished. Those engines used simple cast-iron guides and the Owner's Manuals specified oil weights that confused people into using 10w40 oils (often detergent types) in those engines, which greatly accelerated this wear. Personally, I have not seen an F2/3 engine with 10k miles on it that DIDN'T need new valve guides...they wore fast!

I can recommend the APE bronze guides as a solution to all of those issues with this head. The bronze wears far less without oil than the cast iron type guides, and there is little oil in these guides - just that which seeps past the oil seal, which ain't much! The normal valve stem-to-guide clearance in this head is 0.0012" intake and 0.0018" exhaust.

Also: the valve spring retainers in this engine are simple stamped-steel parts, not a great idea with the extra-strong springs Honda used in them. Contact CycleX and get a set of their great cast valve spring retainers and you won't ever risk pulling the valve keepers thru the retainer. 'Dropping a valve' is what has destroyed the lion's share of the F2/3 top ends.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline grcamna2

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Offline MauiK3

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2022, 01:58:22 PM »
Send your head and cylinders to Hondaman, you won’t regret it and you will get back a head done correctly.
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Offline 70CB750

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2022, 03:00:39 PM »
The guides wear in a flare toward the combustion chamber and at the rocker's side: i.e., they are more worn at the chamber side and the top than in the middle. So, Honda specs this by declaring the "wiggle" amount, which takes in both situations in one measurement. Lift the valve about 1/4" off the seat and wiggle it toward the center of the combustion chamber and away from the chamber's center to see the maximum wear: subtract the standard clearance of 0.0012" (intake) and 0.0018" (exhaust) from your reading to see what the wear value actually has become. If it wiggles more than 0.006" (intakes) or 0.008" (exhaust) the valve guide is done. Chances are, the valves are fine and can be reconditioned (aka "reground").

And, being one of the F2/3 engines with more than 10k miles on it, I'd bet the guides are finished. Those engines used simple cast-iron guides and the Owner's Manuals specified oil weights that confused people into using 10w40 oils (often detergent types) in those engines, which greatly accelerated this wear. Personally, I have not seen an F2/3 engine with 10k miles on it that DIDN'T need new valve guides...they wore fast!

I can recommend the APE bronze guides as a solution to all of those issues with this head. The bronze wears far less without oil than the cast iron type guides, and there is little oil in these guides - just that which seeps past the oil seal, which ain't much! The normal valve stem-to-guide clearance in this head is 0.0012" intake and 0.0018" exhaust.

Also: the valve spring retainers in this engine are simple stamped-steel parts, not a great idea with the extra-strong springs Honda used in them. Contact CycleX and get a set of their great cast valve spring retainers and you won't ever risk pulling the valve keepers thru the retainer. 'Dropping a valve' is what has destroyed the lion's share of the F2/3 top ends.

But this is a K engine, not F. 
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2022, 05:44:54 PM »
Send your head and cylinders to Hondaman, you won’t regret it and you will get back a head done correctly.

For certain  ;)
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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2022, 06:05:30 PM »
The guides wear in a flare toward the combustion chamber and at the rocker's side: i.e., they are more worn at the chamber side and the top than in the middle. So, Honda specs this by declaring the "wiggle" amount, which takes in both situations in one measurement. Lift the valve about 1/4" off the seat and wiggle it toward the center of the combustion chamber and away from the chamber's center to see the maximum wear: subtract the standard clearance of 0.0012" (intake) and 0.0018" (exhaust) from your reading to see what the wear value actually has become. If it wiggles more than 0.006" (intakes) or 0.008" (exhaust) the valve guide is done. Chances are, the valves are fine and can be reconditioned (aka "reground").

And, being one of the F2/3 engines with more than 10k miles on it, I'd bet the guides are finished. Those engines used simple cast-iron guides and the Owner's Manuals specified oil weights that confused people into using 10w40 oils (often detergent types) in those engines, which greatly accelerated this wear. Personally, I have not seen an F2/3 engine with 10k miles on it that DIDN'T need new valve guides...they wore fast!

I can recommend the APE bronze guides as a solution to all of those issues with this head. The bronze wears far less without oil than the cast iron type guides, and there is little oil in these guides - just that which seeps past the oil seal, which ain't much! The normal valve stem-to-guide clearance in this head is 0.0012" intake and 0.0018" exhaust.

Also: the valve spring retainers in this engine are simple stamped-steel parts, not a great idea with the extra-strong springs Honda used in them. Contact CycleX and get a set of their great cast valve spring retainers and you won't ever risk pulling the valve keepers thru the retainer. 'Dropping a valve' is what has destroyed the lion's share of the F2/3 top ends.

But this is a K engine, not F. 

Aha! My mistake, thanks!  :-[
The keepers in the "K" engines are good ones and don't need to be replaced. Otherwise, all I mentioned above is still true, even for the "K" bikes. Actually, in all the "K" bikes after the K2 3/72 production, when the Stellite guides disappeared. They briefly reappeared in the 750F0 engine, but otherwise not so.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline MRieck

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2022, 01:43:29 PM »
I'd bead or vapor blast that head. Get some new valves......Vesrah makes stock valves and I have them in stock. Check the guide with wobble ...ball gauge is better but I'd use a mic to measure the ball. You may be able to just lap in the new valves though I highly recommend a good valve job as the factory valve jobs are very hit or miss. In general the exhaust gides go away before the intake secondary to heat.
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Offline denward17

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2022, 02:51:28 PM »
I had time today to remove all the valves.

Looks like all the exhaust valves have quite a bit of wiggle to them (~.020 or more) when about 1/4" to 1/2" off the seat.

All the intake valves barely moved (measured just 1 that was about .003 movement).

I measured 1 exhaust valve stem (~.258), but could not find the limits in the workshop manual. 

I have some ball gauges coming in the mail this week, so will double check some of the valve guides and measure all the valve stems to see what the clearances are.

It appears at the very least I need exhaust guides and valves.

Should I replace the intake valve guides while there? (along with new intake valves)

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2022, 07:17:16 PM »
Probably just exhaust valve guides, if you can afford it send it to M Reik for a lot of loving, you really wont regret it
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2022, 07:47:38 PM »
IMHO, since it costs 2/3 of the total to do just the exhaust (and that much again for the intakes), I usually recommend both at the same time. If you install bronze guides of some sort you won't likely have to do it again, ever.

That .258" stem diameter is perfect. That's what they are! They don't usually wear, it is the guides that wear.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: 1978 Honda CB750K valve seat and guides questions
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2022, 01:14:23 AM »
CycleX has cryo treated iron guides that they claim  last extra long.

My ported head with 5mm stemmed valves lasted max 20.000km. Guides were VERY worn. Oval holes visible without need to measure.

Mostly the upper part of the guides. Probably due to the more flexible valve.
That was Kibblewhite bronze guides so I'm not impressed.
Used 20-50 Red line full synth oil most of the time so no better oil that could have been used and prolonged the life.

That head  could be saved, got CycleX iron guides and stock stemmed valves. Will hopefully live longer in next build. (Maybe  2023)

Stock guides my bike has consumed back in the days was due to overheating, ex guides.
Running wrong oil another way to reduce life.

I bought a good looking K6 head from USA a few years ago.
All guides bad, Ex guides and valves really bad.
Head looked very fresh otherwise. All threads looked fine, residues from stock sticky head gasket still there. I got the impression that it came from an engine without any mechanical repair.

Head looked as a low miler except for the really bad guides and valves.
Must have been running lean and used wrong oil, probably too thin cheap oil.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 01:17:13 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967