Author Topic: Head gaskets  (Read 876 times)

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Offline exponent

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Head gaskets
« on: December 14, 2022, 05:17:49 PM »
I'm looking at other options on 550 head gaskets, my new 4into1 one feels squishy and theyve leaked before. What was the oem design? Are Athena brand ones graphite coated or steel? Don't know much on this for this engine
'78 550K 2106630

Offline bryanj

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2022, 05:28:44 PM »
Being doing them for 40 yrs and never seen anything other than graphited carboardish type.
Original Honda had a tacky substance around the cam chain tunnel at at ends round oil feed.
Did find a firm once doing copper but they dissapeared. With modern gaskets(no asbestos) you need thicker O rings
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2022, 05:32:46 PM »
I've had best results with the Vesrah head gaskets. They have integral sealant, and the holes are all in their correct locations.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline scunny

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2022, 05:42:10 PM »
I think he means the exhaust crush gaskets oops, brain fart.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 01:24:58 PM by scunny »
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Offline Shtonecb500

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2022, 06:40:51 PM »
my buddies and i have good luck with vesrah and cometic brands.
73/74'' CB500/550 resto-mod - sold
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Offline exponent

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2022, 06:48:12 PM »
I've had best results with the Vesrah head gaskets. They have integral sealant, and the holes are all in their correct locations.

Ok I'll get a set from dynoman before I get my head back
'78 550K 2106630

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2022, 11:34:58 PM »
Why not just use OEM? Some places like CMSNL and others have them in stock.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2022, 11:45:22 PM »
Even oem are thicker than original
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline CB750R

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2022, 07:22:19 AM »
Even oem are thicker than original

Wait what?

OEM = original equipment manufacturer. Can you add more info to your statement?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2022, 09:04:21 AM »
All gaskets sold today are asbestos free and as such have to be thicker to have the same strength as with, so the "new" oem is thicker than the "original" oem. They are both oem but different
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline thep1pe

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2022, 10:05:11 AM »
I have just got an original Honda head gasket. Do I need to get Honda O rings or will the ones in the Athena etc gasket set work?

Offline CB750R

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2022, 11:32:16 AM »
All gaskets sold today are asbestos free and as such have to be thicker to have the same strength as with, so the "new" oem is thicker than the "original" oem. They are both oem but different

Interesting I didn’t know Honda still produced these parts would have assumed all were old stock (pre asbestos removal) if still available.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2022, 01:14:12 PM »
My understanding is the new replacement head gaskets all are too thick for any of the orings in the head gasket interface and the orings must be thicker to compensate and seal or they start leaking after a while if not immediately.  Honda did not modify the oring size to compensate and the aftermarket kits have not done so either.

Just a gotcha of 40-50 year old engines when material change requiring other engineering changes and no active engineering support…

HondaMan has identified the correct sizes needed for those few orings.

At least we can get head gaskets still, there are a few Honda bikes that are even newer which have no viable head gaskets if you cannot find a set of NOS gaskets. The aftermarket available simply won’t last for even 15-20k miles, if that…
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2022, 07:02:56 PM »
In theory....you can mill off the difference in head gasket thickness from the cylinders, and then use the OEM thickness of O-rings.
In theory. But, this hasn't always worked with the 750 engine because the depth of the O-ring holes' recesses in the cylinder deck seemed to have a wide tolerance in actual production, which led to many of these engines leaking (pre-K4) oil after about 10k miles when they were too deep. We often see these engines leaking oil from those sites from the old head gaskets finally losing their seal (usually from being parked for decades) while the O-rings are simultaneously aged enough to have shrunk a bit.

I once measured some 20 cylinders to find out what pocket depth Honda might have been trying to achieve, and I believe it to be 0.6mm in the 'perfect' cylinders. Their production tolerance on such milled-in features was +/-0.04mm (or, about 0.002") while their acceptable O-ring thickness was +/-0.1mm above 4mm and +/0.04mm below that thickness. Since this particular O-ring was spec'd at 2.5mm thickness, it could be 2.36mm and the cylinder's recess could be 0.64mm along with the head gasket's max of 1.1mm (seated thickness), making the total height of the pocket (0.64 + 1.1) = 1.74mm for a (when new) O-ring thickness of possibly 2.36mm, or a squish of (2.36 - 1.74) - 0.64mm. So basically, this small squish of 27% was supposed to hold back 60 PSI of hot oil pressure with the OEM O-ring of 11 x 2.4mm.

To help back up the O-ring, Honda's head gaskets were fully impregnated with sealant that would melt after enough engine full-temperature time and [very nicely] grip the mill-marks on the head and cylinder decks to help seal it. But, the O-rings shrink with age, and faster with heat, so in time there isn't much sealing pressure left to hold back the oil. Once it gets hot and loose it also dissolves the sealant that once held it back, ESPECIALLY in those engines where the owners used oils containing detergents (don't do that to your SOHC4 engine).

To figure out how to make something better, I worked with some airplane mechanical engineers (circa 2006) where I was employed, as they are well-trained in that lifetime-testing sort of thing. The end result was that the O-ring thickness needed to be matched to the newer head gasket thickness, plus 50% more 'squish' applied at assembly, without blocking the oil passage. After searching for about 2 months I found the Parker #02-111 to be 10.77 x 2.62mm size in metric, nearly a perfect fit with the thicker head gaskets and NO cylinder milling! And, when they are fully squished with even the cylinders decked back as much as 0.020", they will not block the passages and are still not overly squished.

So, I buy them by the 100s to get them cheap and spread them out to everyone [here] to prevent heartaches. :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline dave500

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2022, 12:34:15 AM »
ive never had trouble with head gaskets per say on these 500/550 engines,check that any oil weep isnt from those end caps o rings,it can be hard to pin point with wind blowing all over them,ive even reused head gaskets that came off clean a few times with no problems,not ideal and not recommended,i always replace that oil passage o ring with one slightly thicker anyway and also chamfer the oil feed hole in the head slightly aswell,prevents turbulence somewhat is my thought,plus it cant hurt,one last thing,use some threebond or honda bond etc on the tips of the cam chain tunnel area of the gasket,done once,done forever.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 12:36:34 AM by dave500 »

Offline dave500

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2022, 12:40:49 AM »
another source of hard to spot oil weep is those end cap retainer brackets,i ditch the old alloy washers and use copper washers both sides,also de burr the brackets and be sure to use the correct one on each side they are left and right handed,and again ive said,never torque 6mm bolts down in alloy,just feel em down will do.

Offline bryanj

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2022, 07:55:59 AM »
Dave has it spot on with the most common oil leak, those alloy washers are really only a single use item
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline exponent

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2022, 09:21:12 AM »
Hondaman, thank you I'll pick up some of the parker o rings, the ones from the kit are definitely not the right size.
Dave, thank you too I did have a weep coming from the end caps. I had read the alloy washers were super rare and were worth keeping but clearly mine are shot so I'll use copper washers on both sides.
Another question, is there a Parker or other brand o rings for the end cap dowels (that push into the head) that fit perfectly? I was having leaks using 6x3mm harbor freight o rings
'78 550K 2106630

Offline dave500

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2022, 12:39:49 PM »
find a decent diesel pump and injector service place theyll have all sorts of washers and o rings,ive gotten a handfull of stuff for a few bucks from them.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Head gaskets
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2022, 05:08:11 PM »
Hondaman, thank you I'll pick up some of the parker o rings, the ones from the kit are definitely not the right size.
Dave, thank you too I did have a weep coming from the end caps. I had read the alloy washers were super rare and were worth keeping but clearly mine are shot so I'll use copper washers on both sides.
Another question, is there a Parker or other brand o rings for the end cap dowels (that push into the head) that fit perfectly? I was having leaks using 6x3mm harbor freight o rings

If you can't find the extra-thick ones for the oil ports, PM me with the engine type (500/550 or 750) and I'll send a pair. They are different for the 2 engines, and sometimes someone asks me for some without mentioning the engine(!).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com