Author Topic: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?  (Read 724 times)

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Offline Lucien Harpress

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750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« on: December 21, 2022, 01:34:41 PM »
I'm in the process of putting an early (72) CB750 engine together, and I've gotten to the top end and might have hit a bit of a snag.  I bought a full engine gasket set, but even though o-rings were provided, I haven't used any of them.  None of them seem to even come close to fitting where they're supposed to, so I've been ignoring them and either re-using old ones (if they're in good shape) or replacing them (if they're not).

I'm looking at the seals that go on the top end oil passages, between the cylinders and the block (the two around the innermost rear studs), and initially I thought these were just o-rings.  However, when I went to pull up a parts diagram to get the size and shop for replacements, imagine my surprise when I found out these seals are supposed to be square rings.

So, I guess my question- will regular o-rings work just fine as replacements?  Or would I regret this later, and just spring for the proper square-profile seals?
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline ekpent

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2022, 04:37:52 PM »
Got a picture of the part or the diagram ?  Square seal has me confused a little. Make sure you have the correct o-rings under the cam towers though and that others match well with the head gasket you use.  What brand of gasket kit are you using ?

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2022, 05:18:43 PM »
https://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/honda-cb750k2-four-1972-usa-crankcase_bigma000039e22_bf4b.gif

It's item 14 on the diagram.  Part number is 91303-035-000.  Another pair go on those same two studs sandwiched between the cylinders and the head as well.

"Square Ring" in this case means the cross-section of the seal.  It still looks like a ring overall, but the profile of the material is square (while a normal o-ring is round).

I've seen the two kinds interchanged before, and normally wouldn't have a problem with it.  But I'm being a bit more particular about this for a few reasons.  It's got to match up to the head and base gaskets of course, and something too small will leak.  But if I run something too thick, there's a chance it blocks off that oil passage around the stud and starves oil to the top end.  Not good, obviously.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking things.   ;D

(I'm not sure of my gasket set.  I can check tomorrow.  I haven't gotten to the head gasket yet, but I was planning on OEM for that anyway.)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 05:22:05 PM by Lucien Harpress »
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline Don R

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Offline Kevin D

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2022, 05:59:36 AM »
Quote
Or maybe I'm just overthinking things

 You’re not, it’s a critical item.

It’s been 15 years since I have been in there, and I remember some difficulty selecting the right part. My replacement head gasket was thicker than the original, necessitating thicker orings. I’m not the only guy to cross this bridge. Do a search and you might find lots of recent discussion. I think I ended up using viton x-rings, upsized a bit.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 07:39:39 PM by Kevin D »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2022, 06:22:56 PM »
The 'square' O-rings can leak. I've replaced them in 2 engines that leaked a LOT from them. They tend to curl inward as the head is torqued down.

Use Parker #02-111 O-rings, which are 2.62 x 10.77mm in size. These are thick enough to cope with the thicker-than-OEM head gasket you now have, which WILL cause an oil leak at the cylinder-head joint if you use normally-sized O-rings.

If you can't find them, PM me for a pair.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
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Offline newday777

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2022, 07:51:13 PM »
The 'square' O-rings can leak. I've replaced them in 2 engines that leaked a LOT from them. They tend to curl inward as the head is torqued down.

Use Parker #02-111 O-rings, which are 2.62 x 10.77mm in size. These are thick enough to cope with the thicker-than-OEM head gasket you now have, which WILL cause an oil leak at the cylinder-head joint if you use normally-sized O-rings.

If you can't find them, PM me for a pair.

Are they nitrile orings or did you find Vinton?
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My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
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Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2022, 03:59:15 AM »
Thanks everybody.  I guess my main concern was if the square profile was somehow inherently necessary in the engine design.  Seeing as it's the opposite is honestly a relief.  O-rings I can find.

I did manage to find a get a ring in viton of the correct size (2.62x10.77) in a variety pack, so I think for now I'm good.

Thanks!
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2022, 11:43:51 AM »
The 'square' O-rings can leak. I've replaced them in 2 engines that leaked a LOT from them. They tend to curl inward as the head is torqued down.

Use Parker #02-111 O-rings, which are 2.62 x 10.77mm in size. These are thick enough to cope with the thicker-than-OEM head gasket you now have, which WILL cause an oil leak at the cylinder-head joint if you use normally-sized O-rings.

If you can't find them, PM me for a pair.

Are they nitrile orings or did you find Vinton?

These are Buna 70. Viton isn't needed in these engines, they were designed using conventional Buna type.
In the lower side of the cylinders there's 2 O-rings, also, and in the later (K4 onward) engines these became silicone type. In the early engines they were Buna, too. There, either type works fine.

Viton is useful when fuel is encountered, but only if the O-ring is correctly sized, as Viton doesn't seal quite as completely as Buna at low pressures.
This is due to the ethanol having been added to our gas AFTER this design existed: you sometimes find Viton in the more modern bikes' fuel systems (1980s onward) to cope with the MTBE and ethanol.

In these bikes, upsizing the O-ring in the fuel tees and pipes at the carbs to a little thicker and switching to Viton may have some [theoretical] benefit. In practice, though, unless the fuel pipes/tees are often disconnected from the carbs while 'wet' with gas, there isn't a significant advantage, save one instance: in the 750 sandcast and early K0 carbs there's just 1 O-ring on each side of the fuel tees instead of the 2 used after that. Using Viton there (upsize the cross-section from 1.9mm to 2.0mm if you do (making them 2x7.9 or 2x8mm size), because it will require that extra pressure to make the Viton seal. The downside of this swap is important to know: the Viton is a harder, stiffer rubber, and by increasing the thickness to make it seal well, it also GREATLY increases the pressure of the O-ring against the inside of the carb bodies where those tees press in - this can overstress the old zinc-aluminum (Zamac) castings and make it split the carb's fuel port (K0 carbs are hard to find!). So, it may not be worth the risk, just to ensure that fuel might not weep a wisp for a few minutes when turning on the gas after the carbs have fully dried out and the fuel lines dried to empty from sitting a long time.

Buna70 will swell about 3% to 5% when wetted with our modern gas or synthetic oils. After long-term exposure to ethanol the Buna will also shrink about 2% when dried back out from this soaking, but it re-expands more than that to a slightly-more-than-original cross-section with O-rings.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MRieck

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2022, 01:46:39 PM »
The only square Honda o rings I have sen are to use with the later head gaskets with the larger ID for oil drain back. The o rings were for the later head gasket being used on early cylinders that did not have the dowel/doughnut set up.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2022, 01:49:47 AM »
OK, so those o-rings to be used with later head gasket and early cylinder are flat?
I have heard about flat o-rings.

I found an old thread with photo where the o-rings 12115-300-305 were used. Photo that show it. Look flat!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,32427.msg334621.html#msg334621

I have used "normal" o-rings. Head gasket not really flat so I had to press it down and fix it there with dots of sticky sealer here and there.

Here the Service Bulletin #42
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 01:53:08 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2022, 01:51:32 AM »
I have uploaded Service Bulletins before when they disappeared from where earlier uploaded on this forum. Merged a lot of them to one pdf file.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,60026.msg1691064.html#msg1691064
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 06:38:20 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2022, 08:52:32 AM »
Thanks for that service bulletin.  I've been looking up related topics in the meantime, but I had missed this detail until now.  I'll keep it in mind when I get there.

Back on the topic of the lower o-rings, is there any downside to using viton over nitrile?  Reason I ask is that I have the correct size in the viton, but finding that size in the Buna seems to be a bit more difficult.  If viton will work just fine, I'll use what I've got.

Thanks for all the help, BTW.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2022, 08:59:52 AM »
PeWe:
Those O-rings in the bulletin are the ones that I have sometimes found in the oil passage ports(!) and are the very ones that can collapse when used in the pressure situation. What happens (failure analysis) is: the durometer (strength, or stiffness) of those square-section seals is quite low (soft) and the oil seeps out past the top or bottom of it, then it builds up pressure against the outside of that seal, pushing it inward. This happens a little at a time in the pressure port that is formed by the head gasket there. Then when it bends it far enough to go 'over center' the seal folds back into itself, permanently staying that way as the hot oil hardens and swells the exposed portion of the seal that is in the oil's path. Meanwhile, the unchecked oil starts leaking toward the front of the head gasket (downhill) until it leaks out the front of the engine. The portion of the seal that is in the oil's passage (at the oil port) swells enough to make sure it will stay in that position.

All of those that I found leaking were exactly this scenario. One engine even had both seals in that condition. Next time I get one of these I'll post the pix of the ruined O-rings in a post here.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2022, 09:11:35 AM »
Thanks for that service bulletin.  I've been looking up related topics in the meantime, but I had missed this detail until now.  I'll keep it in mind when I get there.

Back on the topic of the lower o-rings, is there any downside to using viton over nitrile?  Reason I ask is that I have the correct size in the viton, but finding that size in the Buna seems to be a bit more difficult.  If viton will work just fine, I'll use what I've got.

Thanks for all the help, BTW.

The viton will work if they are the full 2.62mm thickness of the 02-111 size. That stuff (viton) is usually used in engines running synthetic oils, of which very few will work in this engine (Golden Spectro is one that will, if not the type for the V-Twin engines). I have some viton versions that were SUPPOSED to be the same size, but are not: they measure only 2.50mm thick instead of 2.62, so they won't seal. If you use them, I suggest milling off the cylinder deck by their difference below 2.62mm: normally I mill off 0.010" and use the 2.62-thick O-rings: this would then require milling off a bit more than that.

Some riders have reported that the 2.62-thick (buna 70) O-rings will seal even when the cylinders are not milled off: I always do it to ensure flatness and to remove the difference caused by the modern too-thick head gaskets. Some of the MLS head gaskets are even thicker, making this problem worse: measure the thickness of your gasket and mill the cylinders accordingly, and measure the O-rings as well to come up with your final thickness removal number. I know for sure that the next size thicker (10 x 3.0mm) can close off the oil ports when the head is bolted down and HD engine studs are installed - been there (long ago) , done that!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: 750 Top End Oil Passage: Square Rings or O Rings?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2022, 11:13:52 PM »
The 2.62mm thick o-ring is needed when head gasket is 1.0mm as many are.
If cylinder is not decked.
I mesured 2-3 cylinders, they had 0.95-1.0mm depth for o-rings.

Easy to measure the total depth for o-ring with head gasket in place.
The compression should be within 20-30%.
https://www.marcorubber.com/o-ring-groove-design-considerations.htm

If cylinder groove + head gasket has a total depth of 1.95mm:
Compression of o-ring:
2.62: 25.57%
2.50: 22%

The total gland depth increase if cylinder has 1.0mm depth, gasket a little more.

Stock o-ring 11.5x2.5mm OK with 0.76 mm gasket as a thinner MLS (0.03").
Will be around max 30%, maybe a little over depending on cylinder with the 2 grooves for o-rings that need to be 1.0mm deep.

My 970cc cylinder was milled 1.0mm (from 85 to 84mm height) to match pistons for better squish. Pistons where a little low.
Pistons domes too high so they had to be milled down a few mm too.
The shop milled 2 new holes for o-rings in cylinder, 1.0mm deep.  Use MLS 0.03" and stock size viton o-rings.

MLS gasket has a sealing ring around those holes anyway.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 12:35:53 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967