Author Topic: Would you install new rings?  (Read 1505 times)

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2022, 02:48:11 PM »
I'll report back what they find, no machine work tomorrow, just measurement.
I'm using the online version of the Honda CB750 workshop manual which indicates:

If the diameter is greater than 2.406 in.
(61.1 mm), the cylinder should be rebored
and honed. Further, if the taper and the
out of round is greater than 0.0020 in. (0.05
mm), the cylinder should be repaired in
same manner as above.

There is a spec for the proper piston to cylinder clearance,not 'service limit';the 'service limit' is the Maximum Allowable clearance.
I'm sure HondaMan knows the 'standard running clearance' (used to install fresh parts/rings) but I don't know the CB750 clearance..

I sent HondaMan a PM and I hope he can respond to this thread to give the proper fit measurement specs(how much clearance is Standard,not service Limit:that's Maxed-out) between the pistons and cylinders;I want to know this when replacing the rings on your pistons in those cylinders.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 04:07:07 PM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Tim2005

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2022, 02:54:06 PM »
Just wondering, at only 22k miles why have you stripped the motor? The reason may guide what needs replacing, as at that mileage I'd view a well maintained 750 motor as being nicely run in & would plan on replacing very little indeed. 

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2022, 03:06:41 PM »
Given that I have read that around 30k miles on a motor and you should expect to do cam chain and top end refresh and next oversized I wouldn’t hold my breath too long that 22k motor is not going to need attention beyond honing and fresh rings…
David- back in the desert SW!

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2022, 03:08:41 PM »
Just wondering, at only 22k miles why have you stripped the motor? The reason may guide what needs replacing, as at that mileage I'd view a well maintained 750 motor as being nicely run in & would plan on replacing very little indeed.

Took it out to mainly fix oil leaks, then did a leak down test because it had sit a while without being driven.  After the leak down test indicated problems, I took the head off to discover pitted valve seats and worn exhaust valve guides.  After that decided while I was there would check rings/bores.

Offline newday777

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2022, 03:10:23 PM »
Did you mark each piston and ring sets which bore the came out of? If you get to use them, they have to go back I'm the same hole and same direction they came out of.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2022, 03:11:58 PM »
Did you mark each piston and ring sets which bore the came out of? If you get to use them, they have to go back I'm the same hole and same direction they came out of.

Absolutely did...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2022, 06:01:22 PM »
Hmm...where to start? (Do you have my book? It covers this whole thing in great detail...).

The ring gap numbers you show are at the wear limits. This means the bores are also at their wear limits for that piston size.
Here is what your machine shop will NOT find, as they don't know to look for it: the outer 2 cylinders (1 & 4) are now egg-shaped, if you imagine the blunt end of this egg toward the outside front corners of the cylinders. This is due to having too much cooling on those front corners of the engine, as compared to the rest of the block. The block and liners are now cured, however, and a step-bore with good rings (and oil) will last 100,000 miles - I just did 80k miles of that with my own 750 since 1980, tearing it down for other reasons in 2013.

Next item: you can merely lap the valves, if the guides are not worn, and reinstall them to create a new, tight seal. These engines always lose compression thru their valves when parked for a long time, and they also always recover that compression if simply run for a while afterward. This is because the valve seats are cast iron and the valves steel: they polish each other when running and rust a bit if improperly parked for a long time.

If you just re-ring this engine with the numbers you are showing, it will not last a long time. Typically these will run 8k-10k miles if re-ringed, then they lose compression and often start using oil as well.

In your signature you indicate a 1978K bike: if this is the engine, here's some more things you need to know about it:
1. It has [cheap] cast-iron valve guides that typically last about 10k miles. Replacing them with bronze guides will likely make the bike outlive you! ;)
2. It has pistons that are specific to the K7/8 engine. CruisinImage (and I) have pistons for these. You can improve on the CI rings, though, by getting some RIK or MC brand rings. A step-bore to 0.5mm oversize is likely the best thing you can do with it.
3. Here are the important clearance numbers to know for the rings & pistons:
Ring end gaps for top and 2nd ring: 0.004" minimum.
Ring end gap for oil ring (thin-section rings): 0.008" minimum.
Piston-to-bore clearance, measured at the front or back of the lower piston skirt with the top of the piston at top-of-bore: 0.0006"-0.0012" MAX. I build them at 0.0008" bore in all engines today. Most car-oriented machine shops will NOT do this tight work: find one who will, as they are not used to working with these types of engines and car pistons are typically 3x-4x looser than this in their bores.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2022, 06:25:22 PM »
Thank you HondaMan for this excellent,honest information;no guessing would have worked on my part  :D ;)
I know that if I walked into a standard automotive machine shop and told them the spec is supposed to be between .0006" (6 ten thousands of an inch) - to .0012" (one point two thousands of an inch Maximum:that's less than .002" ! ) they will tell me, "sorry we won't make them to that spec because that's too tight"  ::)
I've had them tell me that plenty, or say "ok" and then they went ahead and bored the cylinders out to .002" or bigger.  >:(  I like the spec. of getting them all bored-out to the clearance of .0008"  ;)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 06:41:17 PM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2022, 06:30:05 PM »
Hmm...where to start? (Do you have my book? It covers this whole thing in great detail...).

The ring gap numbers you show are at the wear limits. This means the bores are also at their wear limits for that piston size.
Here is what your machine shop will NOT find, as they don't know to look for it: the outer 2 cylinders (1 & 4) are now egg-shaped, if you imagine the blunt end of this egg toward the outside front corners of the cylinders. This is due to having too much cooling on those front corners of the engine, as compared to the rest of the block. The block and liners are now cured, however, and a step-bore with good rings (and oil) will last 100,000 miles - I just did 80k miles of that with my own 750 since 1980, tearing it down for other reasons in 2013.

Next item: you can merely lap the valves, if the guides are not worn, and reinstall them to create a new, tight seal. These engines always lose compression thru their valves when parked for a long time, and they also always recover that compression if simply run for a while afterward. This is because the valve seats are cast iron and the valves steel: they polish each other when running and rust a bit if improperly parked for a long time.

If you just re-ring this engine with the numbers you are showing, it will not last a long time. Typically these will run 8k-10k miles if re-ringed, then they lose compression and often start using oil as well.

In your signature you indicate a 1978K bike: if this is the engine, here's some more things you need to know about it:
1. It has [cheap] cast-iron valve guides that typically last about 10k miles. Replacing them with bronze guides will likely make the bike outlive you! ;)
2. It has pistons that are specific to the K7/8 engine. CruisinImage (and I) have pistons for these. You can improve on the CI rings, though, by getting some RIK or MC brand rings. A step-bore to 0.5mm oversize is likely the best thing you can do with it.
3. Here are the important clearance numbers to know for the rings & pistons:
Ring end gaps for top and 2nd ring: 0.004" minimum.
Ring end gap for oil ring (thin-section rings): 0.008" minimum.
Piston-to-bore clearance, measured at the front or back of the lower piston skirt with the top of the piston at top-of-bore: 0.0006"-0.0012" MAX. I build them at 0.0008" bore in all engines today. Most car-oriented machine shops will NOT do this tight work: find one who will, as they are not used to working with these types of engines and car pistons are typically 3x-4x looser than this in their bores.

Thanks Mark, much appreciated.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2022, 05:38:28 AM »
Alternative low cost pistons if bores are worn and need a fresh bore which mean new pistons.
Low mile bike but can happen with bad too thin oil/ oil not changed in time and hard rides without warm up.

I guess your pistons are marked 392. If they are, these can work.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/08/17/77-78-honda-cb750k-k7-k8-0-5mm-over-size-pistons-set/
They ship for a good price in a way for minimum customs issues.

They need a tight bore, total clearance as tight as possible.
I do not know how much under 0.02mm can be done. (bore dia - piston skirt dia.)

Their low priced clutch plates work fine too.
I used one with 836, 80whp.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/12/20/76-78-honda-cb750k6-cb750k7-cb750f2-clutch-friction-plate-2/
« Last Edit: December 30, 2022, 05:55:56 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2022, 07:00:56 AM »
Just got back from machine shop.

There is .0005" taper from top to bottom and some slight appearance of the oval shaping in #1 and #4.

Piston is 2.401" and bore is 2.402"

Looks like I probably need to go up to the next size available bore/piston.

This machine shop said he could hit my number for .0008" on piston/bore clearance.

More research to do.....

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2022, 10:33:50 AM »
Alternative low cost pistons if bores are worn and need a fresh bore which mean new pistons.
Low mile bike but can happen with bad too thin oil/ oil not changed in time and hard rides without warm up.

I guess your pistons are marked 392. If they are, these can work.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/08/17/77-78-honda-cb750k-k7-k8-0-5mm-over-size-pistons-set/
They ship for a good price in a way for minimum customs issues.

They need a tight bore, total clearance as tight as possible.
I do not know how much under 0.02mm can be done. (bore dia - piston skirt dia.)

Their low priced clutch plates work fine too.
I used one with 836, 80whp.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/12/20/76-78-honda-cb750k6-cb750k7-cb750f2-clutch-friction-plate-2/

I like the dome shape on those C.I. piston set PeWe  8) very much the same as the stock pistons;will create a good 'squish ring' where it mates up with the head for decent compression/power,better than just 'flat tops'.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2022, 11:00:31 AM »
Alternative low cost pistons if bores are worn and need a fresh bore which mean new pistons.
Low mile bike but can happen with bad too thin oil/ oil not changed in time and hard rides without warm up.

I guess your pistons are marked 392. If they are, these can work.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/08/17/77-78-honda-cb750k-k7-k8-0-5mm-over-size-pistons-set/
They ship for a good price in a way for minimum customs issues.

They need a tight bore, total clearance as tight as possible.
I do not know how much under 0.02mm can be done. (bore dia - piston skirt dia.)

Their low priced clutch plates work fine too.
I used one with 836, 80whp.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/12/20/76-78-honda-cb750k6-cb750k7-cb750f2-clutch-friction-plate-2/

I like the dome shape on those C.I. piston set PeWe  8) very much the same as the stock pistons;will create a good 'squish ring' where it mates up with the head for decent compression/power,better than just 'flat tops'.
My K2 has them. Work fine.
58+ whp with Yamiya no numbers 4-4.
I have a new spare set with fresh cylinder bored for them.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2022, 06:57:40 PM »
Alternative low cost pistons if bores are worn and need a fresh bore which mean new pistons.
Low mile bike but can happen with bad too thin oil/ oil not changed in time and hard rides without warm up.

I guess your pistons are marked 392. If they are, these can work.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/08/17/77-78-honda-cb750k-k7-k8-0-5mm-over-size-pistons-set/
They ship for a good price in a way for minimum customs issues.

They need a tight bore, total clearance as tight as possible.
I do not know how much under 0.02mm can be done. (bore dia - piston skirt dia.)

Their low priced clutch plates work fine too.
I used one with 836, 80whp.
https://www.cruzinimage.net/2017/12/20/76-78-honda-cb750k6-cb750k7-cb750f2-clutch-friction-plate-2/


Yep, those are the pistons I've used before, too. If you want to go top-drawer you can get the rings from RIK or MC, too, which are excellent with these pistons. These pistons have the same ring thickness grooves as the Honda pistons: there are some others out there that have thinner rings, more like racing-style rings. They work fine, but I suspect they may not last quite as long? I think these originate in Germany.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2022, 06:36:10 AM »
I assume these are cast type pistons (the CI pistons) about like the original Honda pistons?

I guess there is no need for forged unless going for bigger HP, correct?

Offline bryanj

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2022, 07:03:05 AM »
Correct, and a lot more at that
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline PeWe

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2022, 07:15:01 AM »
My K6 with old RC cast 836 pistons handled 80-83whp. Often at 9000rpm. Cheap compression tester in the 190PSI area.
Before them Action Fours 836 also cast. Lower compression though.

Before them forged RC that I melted 2-3, hole in one. Probably wrong ignition on 2:3. Higher compression.

So cast piston can too. ;)

My K2 that has the CI 61.50mm K7-K8 pistons. 170-175 PSI when measured with the tester (throttles fully open). Stock K7 cam, K6 refurbished head and cylinder. 6000km so far, it take no oil.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 07:41:22 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Online denward17

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2022, 07:53:12 AM »
So if I understand correctly, get the CI piston kit in either .5 or 1mm overside and get RIK or MC rings.

Any reason to get .5mm instead of 1mm oversize?

Are all CB750 aftermarket rings the same, are do I have to be careful and get '77-'78 rings only?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 07:58:27 AM by denward17 »

Offline PeWe

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2022, 08:05:46 AM »
The CI piston kit is complete with rings. Unless other rings to be a known upgrade.
The included G-shaped clips might not be as safe as Honda stock. Wrist pin has less chance to push it out of the groove. Maybe minimal risk.
61.50 to start with if stock worn 61.00mm.
Next (+1.0) 62.00mm for ev future.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline PeWe

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CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967


Offline grcamna2

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2022, 11:41:24 AM »
F2 pistons might be too much here when 392 is the head?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/323966520923?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=6x5GDSHrT6-&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=XgCEg0CPSya&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

yes, 392 is what was in it.  I'm not sure the F pistons would work.

Does your cylinder head have the number '392' cast into it ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.


Offline grcamna2

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75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Would you install new rings?
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2022, 07:38:38 PM »
The CI piston kit is complete with rings. Unless other rings to be a known upgrade.
The included G-shaped clips might not be as safe as Honda stock. Wrist pin has less chance to push it out of the groove. Maybe minimal risk.
61.50 to start with if stock worn 61.00mm.
Next (+1.0) 62.00mm for ev future.

Yeah, like PeWe says...some of the CI kits have come with those piston pin clips that have a bent end to help install them, but they have also been known to undo themselves, an expensive day at best. These clips first appeared (that I saw) in the early 1970s, and they came out in roadracing conditions, but I never trusted them after that.

The clips don't wear out, so just re-use your old ones if the new ones have that bend in them. I'm old-school enough on modern parts that I re-use the old ones in most of my rebuilds now.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com