Author Topic: horsepower est.  (Read 2138 times)

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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2023, 02:23:06 PM »
PeWe,

Good read, good info…

Just wondering aloud as a read your posts..

Are you gas porting your pistons for standard tension or low tension top rings for your billet block ?
Age Quod Agis

Offline Don R

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2023, 03:17:40 PM »
 PeWe, your mention of valve rubs brought this beast to mind. The cam tower bolts were pulled loose. Who can imagine the carnage going on inside this "ran when parked" engine. The PO rode it until his muffler packing got sucked in the baffle tube, the exhaust plugged, and it stuck a valve open.
 What's even more odd is that the #1,#2 and #4 exhausts were hitting the piston but on #3 it was the intake.   
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2023, 06:20:01 PM »
PeWe, your mention of valve rubs brought this beast to mind. The cam tower bolts were pulled loose. Who can imagine the carnage going on inside this "ran when parked" engine. The PO rode it until his muffler packing got sucked in the baffle tube, the exhaust plugged, and it stuck a valve open.
 What's even more odd is that the #1,#2 and #4 exhausts were hitting the piston but on #3 it was the intake.   

Don, just looking at that one gives me the eebie-jeebies! :o
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2023, 09:22:15 PM »
PeWe,

Good read, good info…

Just wondering aloud as a read your posts..

Are you gas porting your pistons for standard tension or low tension top rings for your billet block ?
Rings are the std rings for Dynoman's JE pistons. "XA7125
Chrome 0.8 x 0.8 x 1.5"

Interesting you mention it. The mechanic compared the top ring with another engine he was working on, a not that old Kawasaki with harder top rings, different tension. Deeper rings as well.
I do not recall all details but the Kawasaki rings could be better.

Gas ported rings could be another improvement ;)
https://www.totalseal.com/rings/gas-ported-rings
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 09:57:02 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2023, 09:36:06 PM »
PeWe, your mention of valve rubs brought this beast to mind. The cam tower bolts were pulled loose. Who can imagine the carnage going on inside this "ran when parked" engine. The PO rode it until his muffler packing got sucked in the baffle tube, the exhaust plugged, and it stuck a valve open.
 What's even more odd is that the #1,#2 and #4 exhausts were hitting the piston but on #3 it was the intake.

The stucked valves made the cam tower bolts to come loose?
Very strange with plugged exhaust caused stucked valve.
Not a dropped valve due to retainer/broken stem if thinner model and a domino effect after with cam towers and the other valves?

Pistons look like survivors despite that.
I know one guy that dropped a 5mm stemmed valve, cam towers came loose, piston, carillo rod carnage and crank.
Chamber damaged too. The mechanic here could get it welded, new seat and fix the ported head, new other things.
The question in such case was if  cam tower came loose first or if the 5mm stemmed valve snapped causing the rest.

Valve dish sat as a crashed UFO into the piston crown.
I should have taken photos of the carnage.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 08:32:55 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Don R

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2023, 09:16:15 AM »
 I assumed the valve/piston clash caused the cam tower bolts to loosen but the previous owner may have just overtightened them.
 The first thing I noticed was carbon inside the motor, everything I touched left my hands black. Many problems were just caused by abuse and poor assembly. The stuck valve may be bent but it did pop back closed after a dose of penetrating oil and a finger push.
  This has been on the shelf for close to 20 years, the guys here encouraged me not to junk it, it wasn't the original motor from the bike anyway, my brother gave me another junky bike with a good motor we got in a ride that year before winter.
 
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2023, 06:35:21 PM »

 The first thing I noticed was carbon inside the motor, everything I touched left my hands black.
 


Here's a little-known item about "black insides" in this engine that I experienced:
In 1980 when I tore mine down (had just got [re]married, desired a bit more power) for its first oversize, I found the entire inside of the engine was jet-black, everywhere. It was much worse in the crankcases, even inside the side covers of the engine. I'd never seen this before, but I had been using Hondaline oil for the previous riding season as Castrol XLR was unavailable here at the time. I needed the local Honda shop to pull out the very stuck countershaft bearing (so I could get the cases washed at a machine shop), so I made an appointment and went to see their "750 specialist" (huh...). Upon seeing the inside of the lower case he chided me, saying, "When was the last time you changed this oil?". I told him plainly, It is Hondaline oil, bought from this very store, for the last 6 months." He told he he didn't believe me.

Everything was coated as black as if someone had poured black graphite into the engine, from that oil. By the time I finished the rebuild I had located a case of the XLR and went back to using it after the rebuild. But, I have NEVER seen as black an inside of this engine as that was, and touching it made everything black like charcoal.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Don R

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2023, 09:20:03 AM »
 Wow Mark, that makes sense, the PO was good friends with Charlie Rice from Charlies Cycle supply in West Jersey Illinois who always sold Hondaline oil and he lived near the shop.  This bike is a clone of Charlies 750 diecast because Charlie wouldn't sell his.
 The inside of the chrome rocker cover is a gorgeous black chrome lol.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2023, 11:42:43 AM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2023, 10:29:50 AM »
What in oil made engine black?
Graphite or loads of zinc or?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Don R

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2023, 01:31:41 PM »
 I was just thinking, I feel a little less like junking this old 811 now.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2023, 07:28:51 AM »
A pitch black inside might still be a good engine ;)
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline pjlogue

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2023, 08:10:08 AM »

 The first thing I noticed was carbon inside the motor, everything I touched left my hands black.
 


Here's a little-known item about "black insides" in this engine that I experienced:
In 1980 when I tore mine down (had just got [re]married, desired a bit more power) for its first oversize, I found the entire inside of the engine was jet-black, everywhere. It was much worse in the crankcases, even inside the side covers of the engine. I'd never seen this before, but I had been using Hondaline oil for the previous riding season as Castrol XLR was unavailable here at the time. I needed the local Honda shop to pull out the very stuck countershaft bearing (so I could get the cases washed at a machine shop), so I made an appointment and went to see their "750 specialist" (huh...). Upon seeing the inside of the lower case he chided me, saying, "When was the last time you changed this oil?". I told him plainly, It is Hondaline oil, bought from this very store, for the last 6 months." He told he he didn't believe me.

Everything was coated as black as if someone had poured black graphite into the engine, from that oil. By the time I finished the rebuild I had located a case of the XLR and went back to using it after the rebuild. But, I have NEVER seen as black an inside of this engine as that was, and touching it made everything black like charcoal.

Exxon used to sell graphite oil back in the mid 70's.  I used to use it until I saw that it did separate and coat the oil pan and came off in sheets like black paint.  Thought that it couldn't be good for the gallies and top end.  Never had a problem with the engine though.  At that time Mobile started their Mobile 1 oil.  It came in a metal can rather than the fibered oil can most company's sold.  I used that in my car for a long time until I realized the reason Mobile 1 came in a metal can is because it caused engine oil leaks.  It must have shrunk the oil seals in the engine.  Cost me over $700 to get my car's oil seals replaced.

-P.

-P.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2023, 06:32:53 PM »

 The first thing I noticed was carbon inside the motor, everything I touched left my hands black.
 


Here's a little-known item about "black insides" in this engine that I experienced:
In 1980 when I tore mine down (had just got [re]married, desired a bit more power) for its first oversize, I found the entire inside of the engine was jet-black, everywhere. It was much worse in the crankcases, even inside the side covers of the engine. I'd never seen this before, but I had been using Hondaline oil for the previous riding season as Castrol XLR was unavailable here at the time. I needed the local Honda shop to pull out the very stuck countershaft bearing (so I could get the cases washed at a machine shop), so I made an appointment and went to see their "750 specialist" (huh...). Upon seeing the inside of the lower case he chided me, saying, "When was the last time you changed this oil?". I told him plainly, It is Hondaline oil, bought from this very store, for the last 6 months." He told he he didn't believe me.

Everything was coated as black as if someone had poured black graphite into the engine, from that oil. By the time I finished the rebuild I had located a case of the XLR and went back to using it after the rebuild. But, I have NEVER seen as black an inside of this engine as that was, and touching it made everything black like charcoal.

Exxon used to sell graphite oil back in the mid 70's.  I used to use it until I saw that it did separate and coat the oil pan and came off in sheets like black paint.  Thought that it couldn't be good for the gallies and top end.  Never had a problem with the engine though.  At that time Mobile started their Mobile 1 oil.  It came in a metal can rather than the fibered oil can most company's sold.  I used that in my car for a long time until I realized the reason Mobile 1 came in a metal can is because it caused engine oil leaks.  It must have shrunk the oil seals in the engine.  Cost me over $700 to get my car's oil seals replaced.

-P.

-P.

The black 'stuff' inside the engine would stick to my fingers readily, had to keep gasoline on hand to clean it off! It was slippery, too. But, zinc is grey like cement, so I don't think it was that. It didn't HURT anything, and the bearings were all 100% good everywhere, no seals leaked or anything like that. The Hondaline oil, though, just did not quiet the top end like Castrol's XLR always did (and Bel-Ray's EXL Mineral does now), and it felt somewhat listless at 80 MPH hiway speeds (hence the teardown, I thought maybe the engine was getting tired?). Maybe it really only needed some more Castrol? Well, too late after that, it grew to 1st oversize and got a port job over that winter.

However...a friend had a nice, new CBX then, and over that winter he added a turbocharger to it. He was using the Hondaline oil. About mid-next-summer (1981) it started weeping oil at several seals, and he blamed the Hondaline oil for it. After replacing the seals that Fall he switched back to Castrol XLR, too. He said it ran much cooler with the Castrol (and I'd say cleaner, inside!).

When I took mine down in 2006 after it sat from 2001 (following cancer and recovery) it had been using the Bel-Ray EXL, and I actually parked it with old oil in it (shame...). There was not a hint of corrosion nor rust nor crust anywhere inside, sweet and clean-looking, so I just replaced the primary chains (126k miles) and piston rings (bit of rust in one cylinder then) and put it back together. Those rings never quite seated 100%, which was what led to the 2013 top-end rebuild. That's not the oil's fault: re-ringing used bores in these engines NEVER makes for a good ring seal (even in the Honda singles or twins).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2023, 08:45:28 PM »
It would be fine if the oil companies could make a perfect oil for CB750.

20W-50 with correct amount of phospourous  and zinc plus what else needed for gearbox.
Maybe a version for modified engines with much more power too.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Shtonecb500

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2023, 01:54:37 PM »
what does soft seized mean?
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75' 750f 91' cbr f2 swap cafe - mock up
74' 750 chopper hardtail - complete - sold
74' CB750/836kit - Black mix & match - daily rider - always tweaking
71' cb500 K0 survivor - complete
71' K1 - CANDY GOLD/BROWN Winton kit - in process

Offline Kelly E

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2023, 09:11:53 PM »
Rottela T4 15w/40 diesel oil works great in our engines. In the neighborhood I grew up in north Seattle there's a oil specialty company named Bardahl. We went to them and asked for the best oil for our vintage cars and old Japanese bikes. They said that they didn't need to blend anything special for us because their Bardahl HDD 15w/40 diesel oil is perfect for the application, they also recommended the Rotella T4 15w/40 as an option. They said to not use synthetic oil because our motorcycle transmissions are hard on the long chain molecules or something like that.
I've used both oils and have no complaints.
Never Give Up - Never Surrender

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1974 Honda CB 550 K0                                            1971 MGB/GT
1975 Honda CB 400F Super Sport                          1972 MGB/GT
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000 LTD                                   1985 GMC S15
1978 Kawasaki KL 250
1980 Suzuki GS 1100E
1982 Honda CB 900F Super Sport
1983 Honda CB 1100F
1984 Honda VF 700S Sabre
1984 Honda VF 1000F Interceptor
1990 Moto Guzzi 1000 Le Mans
1994 Kawasaki Concours ZG 1000A9
2005 Harley Davidson Fat Boy

Offline dave500

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2023, 10:57:01 PM »
without firing up an oil thread ive used castrol rx diesel and rx super for years in my car/mowers/bikes anything without a cat,its a 15/40 and quite cheap in 20 litre drums ive been buying it for years,thing is though some oils are different for the country they are either made in or destined for.

Offline Don R

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2023, 03:32:40 PM »
what does soft seized mean?
  Motor died at an idle and appeared to be quite tight but restarted after a 10-minute cool down period.  Oddly, I took it apart and there are no scored areas in the cylinders or on the pistons. The rings look new but the cylinders have no cross hatch. I suspect ring gaps and want to measure piston-cylinder clearance.
 The motor had no cam chain guide, I'm surprised it ran as well as it did.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2023, 03:37:18 PM by Don R »
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline PeWe

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Re: horsepower est.
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2023, 11:00:51 PM »
Oil pan has been removed, inside verified to be clean, oil pump strainer especially?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967