Author Topic: spark advance springs  (Read 1082 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dummysales

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • links to Warren
spark advance springs
« on: February 03, 2023, 08:18:16 AM »
I've referenced Hondaman's posts and found his recommendation for replacing my '70 KO CB750 advance unit springs with those from a '72 K2 model. The trouble is there are no references on any parts list concerning any part numbers for either the 70 model or 72 model. They would like to sell the entire advance unit for upwards of $100.

So, I'm looking for a part number of a spring supplier for the advancer springs on a '70 K2.

If you happen to have a K2 point plate off your bike and can measure the actual spring (resting not installed), then I'd at least have a starting point for my change-out. Hondaman does indicate the measurement differences in his post, but not an actual measurement for either model's springs.

Does anyone have any suggestions?
1970 early K0, bought in '73; chopped in 74

Offline newday777

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,349
  • Avatar is my 76 K6 in Colorado w/Cody on back 1980
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2023, 08:45:34 AM »
Welcome aboard.
Sorry I don't have an answer as mine are K4-K8
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 20,034
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2023, 07:54:33 PM »
 I always wondered if an advance kit for a gm distributor contained any springs we could use. I just cut off a half coil from a stock cb spring and use two needle nose pliers to re-shape the end.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Dummysales

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • links to Warren
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2023, 08:05:04 AM »
Thanks to Hondaman for giving me the scoop on the spring issue. I've shortened both and in the process of reinstalling the unit. There was no clear answer to how to reassemble the unit and I had a fifty-fifty chance of getting it correct. Wrong!

Here's a photo of how not to assemble the K0 version. The cam tube (whatchamacallit) that slides over the advancer post can be put together 180 degrees out of whack. Now I know that there is a small slot on the top of the cam tube that should reside in the 1:30 position relative to the location of the 2-3 timing marks if the 1-4 marks are to the left, or 9 o'clock location.

Since my problem was no advance past the F mark, we expect that the weak springs allowed the unit to advance way too soon, hence there was no advance left for the " mark. I should have it together and timed perfectly (eh) today. I'll let you know.
1970 early K0, bought in '73; chopped in 74

Offline Dummysales

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • links to Warren
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2023, 12:27:49 PM »
I've received permission from Hondaman to post his reply with the specifics about fixing the advance springs, so here ya go.

Well, the springs have never been a part, separate from a whole spark advancer. That's the BAD news.
The GOOD news is: yours are probably usable (with some mods) as it sounds like they are softened enough that at idle they are already advancing. When this happens, the points timing (even statically set) ends up being advanced by the slack in the springs, so when the engine revs up, it doesn't advance as far. This is pretty common on the earlier 750s before Hitachi (and then TEC later) got involved with making the advancers. While that didn't  completely solve it, those newer versions pointed the way toward where the trouble was coming from: the springs were getting heat-annealed and lost much of their original strength.

What needs to happen first: cut off the loop on the end of one of the springs where it fits over the little post on the advancer's backplate. Then bend the next coil outward to take it's place. You probably won't be able to introduce the little 90-degree offset from the original spring shape, but that doesn't matter (it was actually part of the spring's design that CAUSED this problem...). Just bend the next loop outward to let it pop over that post again. Then, on the other end of the spring(s) where it hooks into the weight(s), 'shrink' the loop there because that loop has grown over time to introduce the slack that has become an invisible static 'advance' of timing about 4-5 degrees. The slack here is what makes the spark advancer appear to not reach full advance, because at idle the weights are already partially advanced, due to the slack here in both springs.

What these steps do is: it removes the slack that has accumulated in the now-stretched loops of the springs at the weights, and the shortened (by 1 loop) of one of the springs will slow down the advancer rate to bring it closer to full advancer nearer 2000 RPM again. Right now, chances are it reaches full advance (as far as the springs go) at about 1500 RPM, which causes fouled sparkplugs by firing too soon. This makes the engine spit back toward the carbs, which in turn slows down the airflow thru the intake tract, which makes the carbs act like the engine is running slower: the carbs mix richer at lower air speeds.

You'll also find that if you venture further, like removing 1/2 to 1 turn of spring from the 2nd spring, the engine will idle cooler and smoother and the throttle response, especially at low speeds in gear, will greatly improve. Our modern gasolines with ethanol in them burn very slowly: so slowly that today's Midgrades burn at the same speed as 1970s Premium did. The slow-burning fuel is made to light off catalytic convertors in vehicles. I've found that running Regular grade fuel in town and commuting works best without fouling plugs now, and I use Midgrade on the freeways and interstates unless I am carrying heavy (touring) weight, then I'll use Premium. The plugs stay cleaner and the engine runs much cooler with the lower octances. In the end I cut off 1 full turn from both weights and mine reaches full advance just before 3000 RPM now. It is MUCH happier, and lots smoother in city traffic.

And this reminder of places to find more info about your favorite machines: SOHC4.com and SOHC4.net forums

I'm delayed in getting my chop up because I finally stripped out one of the valve cover bolts that's been touch and go for a decade or two. I forget what they call those dodads to fix threads, but I'm sure I have a 6 mm one left.

Happy trails, all ya'll.

waj
1970 early K0, bought in '73; chopped in 74

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,858
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2023, 03:32:13 PM »
Also, Yamiya has replacement advancer springs.  I have not seen any reports here of them solving these problems.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline newday777

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,349
  • Avatar is my 76 K6 in Colorado w/Cody on back 1980
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2023, 06:16:03 PM »
The thread fix is Helicoils.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Dummysales

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • links to Warren
Re: spark advance springs
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2023, 04:38:55 AM »
Thanks, Stu.
1970 early K0, bought in '73; chopped in 74