Topic: Valves causing a retarded timing?

[mr.brandon]

So, for a while I've been trying to find out why I can't get my timing either a bit advanced or, right on the "fire" mark (it will not go past retarded). Last night I was looking at the possibility of the cam chain being off.. I got to 15°before the #1 cylinders "t" adjusted the cam chain tentioner's nut as tight as I could by hand and then another maybe 1/4 turn by wrench(as there are no lbs. In inches or other spec I have found other than not "gorilla tight". Anyway all intake/exhaust tappets are within spec but..**I can't get (ANY SPACE) between #2 cylinders exhaust tappet** even with the screw and nut completely out of the rocker arm, there isn't any space. I'm not certain why but I am wondering if that is what is causing the retarded timing? Also, in my amen frame, there is PLENTY of space to get the cover and head off, I am just not certain as of yet, the details of that process. But I think I'm going to probably be replacing or lapping that valve, seat cut and guide, etc. Any input from those more experienced than I, always a big, big help and ALWAYS extremely appreciated.  Thank you, Mr. Brandon

[HondaMan]

Hmmm...first thing: if the #2 tappet is still resting against the valve retainer with the adjuster removed, that sounds like either a broken valve stem, or a loose valve, with the top portion of the valve stem no longer captured by the retainers(?). I'd sure pull off that cam cover and look before going any further? That could be a serious trouble, as these valve keepers VERY rarely come off (except in the 750F2/3 engines, but that's another story).

The cam chain adjuster: when the engine is positioned with the #4 (or #1) tappet just starting to go down while kicking the engine over slowly with the kickstarter, then you loosen the nut and bolt on the tensioner and it snaps up the slack automatically. Then you just snug the bolt down again, and then the locknut. The adjuster inside has a tapered ramp where that little bolt hits it, and setting it into a position prevents the tensioner from backing away from the chain. The little bolt and nut don't control the tension, they just hold the tensioner shaft still.

[Don R]

 If you are talking about ignition timing, the sohc honda runs its ignition off of the crankshaft so the cam doesn't affect ignition timing at all. Someone familiar with older cars may have suggested that.
 
  I can only suggest you carefully read the manual on valve adjustment. That rocker arm is obviously on the cam lobe so you are either adjusting the wrong lobe of the cam or have turned the engine to an incorrect rotation point.

[mr.brandon]

I'm an idiot,  I was thinking #4, but adjusting #2. Sorry. On to the tentioner, once it snaps back into place, you can lock it down as tight as you wish?also, still haven't  figured out why I am not able to get out of the retarded position as far as timing is concerned,. I am at .015 gap on both points. I am not sure if adjusting to .016 would affect the timing much. Not sure exactly were else to look at this point?

[RAFster122s]

If you have Honda OEM points, TEC or TOYO these days, then you should be able to adjust. If yours are the junk many are selling, DAIICHI, then they are mis-shaped and near impossible to get timed without bending them. Bending them and keeping the faces parallel is Extremely difficult. Their condensers are defective out of the box almost always or quickly fail. Cheap Chinese Crap

Buy full points plate from South Sound Honda of Olympia Washington for best price.

[mr.brandon]

Figured that I was reading the instructions incorrectly,  I still have been chasing the timing issue for a good while. I do have a new and complete oem plate with good points and condensers set at .015, both. With a strobe, 2/3 are right on at the "f" mark with no skipping or jumping in the plate... 1-4 will not turn any closer to the "f". It is retarded and with the degree wheel that is built into the strobe, it measures 6° (retarded). It is the only one that will sit momentarily but kind of skip as the ram's jump a bit. But again, when measuring 2/3, there is NO skip at all. I just did the tappets, adjusted the cam chain tensioner,  cleaned and set the carbs (but have not yet synced).and cleaned some older plugs. I am not sure if (maybe) one of those plugs was bad or fouled before I cleaned? I guess that I will look at the plugs markings, test them to see if they are still operable, buy new plugs and sync carbs. At that point, as far as the retarded timing, I'm not exactly sure what to consider or look at. If anyone has a knowledgeable suggestion as to what may be happening or what I might want to look at, I surely do appreciate the helping hands.

[BenelliSEI]

You understand the 2/3 points can be advanced and retarded on the fixed plate? Line them up to give the same strobe light reading as 1/4. Then rotate the full plate to line up at idle (900-1000 rpm).
If it won’t rotate to where you want, it’s often a poorly made, after market part. Use a Dremel and extend the slots.....

With your timing light make sure both points sets are hitting full advance above 2500 rpm. I’m more concerned that is correct than idle setting.

[mr.brandon]

Yes, 2/3 are good and I do know that there are 2 different and operable plates. My main plate will not advance any farther in order to get to the "f" mark. It is currently 6° retarded. I dremeled my last plate maybe 1 or 2 16ths so that I could get more rotation and get to the "f" but, I was told by a pretty experienced mechanic,  that I should not be doing that. He didn't say why (of course),. I suppose because I need to find what is causing this occurrence?

[madmtnmotors]

Point gap calls for .012 to .016. At .015 you are near the high side so set the point gap closer to .012 and that will advance your timing. Set your timing after narrowing the gap to .012.

EZPZ

[Don R]

 What he said X2^

[mr.brandon]

Right on! That is the advice that I've been looking for! I just thought that wider went more advanced ce. It is the opposite though,..! Thank you (*VERY) much

[madmtnmotors]

Nope, I did not think it clear through. Wider point gap should open sooner thus advancing the timing to achieve the wider gap at the top of the points cam. A narrower gap would hit the points cam later which would indeed retard the timing. My bad, you were correct to think the wider gap would advance the timing. Start increasing the point gaps .001 at a time until you get into a range where you can hit the timing marks.

My apologies for any confusion.

[mr.brandon]

Right on! That is the advice that I've been looking for! I just thought that wider went more advanced ce. It is the opposite though,..! Thank you (*VERY) much. It worked like an absolute charm. I still have the harley po-ta-to sound.. but I will have to figure that out! I'm excited that I got the timing on.

[madmtnmotors]

So if the timing was retarded then you were originally firing closer to the "T" mark? Regardless, hitting the limits of timing adjustment one direction or the other can usually be resolved  by adjusting the point gap. Glad you were able to get it sorted. A dwell meter can help get the points firing more evenly as well.