Author Topic: The CB550 downdraft port project  (Read 11223 times)

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Offline speedracer741

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The CB550 downdraft port project
« on: March 10, 2007, 10:18:21 PM »
So now that I have just finished getting all of the tooling necessary to make some real headway on this project I decided to start a thread showing the progress of this experiment. So if it's a disaster, you will all get to see it right here! The idea behind this project is to develop the 500/550 head to a point that will support much higher flow rates than can be achieved with the stock casting. The 500 and 550 head are the same and when big bore kits are installed in the 550, the head really becomes the bottleneck in the potential of the displacement. Great gains are to be had from conventional upgrades such as porting and cam timing, however there is quite a bit more to be tapped from one of these things and this project is my little attempt to see just what those gains are. The stock intake manifolds result in a rather long runner length, not ideal for a small high revving engine but my guess is that it was Hondas attempt to retain some useable torque for the smaller bikes. For high perfromance purposes this isn't as much of a concern so the idea here is to shorten up the runner length to be more optimized for the Megacycle 126-21 cam that will be used in this build. The other design goal is to straighten the intake runner resulting in greater flow and velocity, greatly improving cylinder filling after bottom dead center which will also help optimize the cam timing. This intake design is nothing new, all modern sportbikes use this technology and it has been around just about as long as internal combustion.

To begin I have taken a CB550 head and cut it open with a ban saw to get a cross sectional view of the ports so I can see what I can get away with. 30 degrees is as steep as this head will go. Modern bikes have steeper ports however they have far less angle between the valves which allows this but 30 degrees is a huge jump nonetheless. The new ports will also have to be moved over so that they are in line with bore centerline. This will require plugging the stock ports with aluminum slugs. Some welding will also have to be done to the inboard side walls of the ports as there will be a void there when the new straight ports are machined. Then aluminum blocks will be bolted to the old manifold surface and milled at the new 30 degree angle. Spigots will then be pressed into these to mount the carburetors. The carbs for the prototype are Keihin VE series in 32mm. 1.5mm oversize intake valves and 2mm oversize exhaust valves are currently under construction, pictures soon!   
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2007, 10:22:05 PM »
Making quick work of tearing apart the first head with the pneumatic valve spring compressor. I will most likely be doing several heads at once as I'm sure to make a few mistakes along the way!
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 11:28:49 PM »
Machining the blocks that will cover the old manifold surface. The holes are counterbored for the allen head bolts as deep as possible as most of the material will be gone once they have been milled at the 30 degree angle and I don't want to end up chopping the tops of the bolts off. Once the head is near completion, material will be machined from the blocks between the ports allowing air flow through the cylinder head. The first head has been machined for the port plugs but will not be welded into place until some welding has been done to the inboard sidewalls of the ports. I also want to get at least one more head to this point before continuing. Everything after this point requires setting up angle mounts in a mill and set up time will rather high so having more than one head ready would be a good idea :)
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 12:48:56 AM by speedracer741 »
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline jonbuoy

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2007, 12:56:42 AM »
Thats impressive work, its great to see people do this stuff. Will be watching your progress.

Cheers & good luck

John

Offline Jonesy

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 05:48:44 AM »
WOW! I'll be following this thread with great interest. Compared to what you're doing, I did some rather mild porting work to my 550 over the winter:

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=17374.msg179632#msg179632

That cutaway view of the head would have been very helpful then, but it looks like I removed metal in the right places. :P

So far I have everything stock on the bike, but I did notice the engine being more lively beyond 5,500 RPM. (Still need to write a follow-up post on the performance...)

Neat stuff. Keep us updated!
"Every time I start thinking the world is all bad, then I start seeing people out there having a good time on motorcycles; it makes me take another look." -Steve McQueen

Offline puppytrax

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2007, 06:22:56 AM »
That is some cool stuff!!!  ;)

Will you be sectioning each cylinder in your display head to insure that they are all identical?? [hint, hint]   ;D
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline puppytrax

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2007, 07:15:15 AM »
OK, this is a bit off-topic, but...

I'm getting old, and my memory is failing, but I seem to recall that either Cycle World or Cycle News reporting back in '71 that Honda had to deliberately cripple the production 500 Four by port/cam changes due to the fact that the prototypes were quicker/faster than the 750...and they didn't want sales of the "big four" to suffer because of that...   ::)

Just an observation...It would be helpful to know if any other old farts remember any Yoshimura head mods back at that time, that restored the lost HP from the altered port/cam mods...It might help your project...   ;)
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Ricisan

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 09:12:57 AM »
Reinventing the wheel? Trying to reinvent the CB 500 head will I think be a disappointment. I read an article by "Jewell Hendricks" where he said the "biggest cyl head gains" came from a very simple
change in head. I don't remember exactly what that was, and I do not want to misinform. Check it out. This article might be in one of the many  "Gentleman's Express" tech articles.
KISS works for me.

Ricisan

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2007, 02:00:58 PM »
Reinventing the wheel? Trying to reinvent the CB 500 head will I think be a disappointment. I read an article by "Jewell Hendricks" where he said the "biggest cyl head gains" came from a very simple
change in head. I don't remember exactly what that was, and I do not want to misinform. Check it out. This article might be in one of the many  "Gentleman's Express" tech articles.
KISS works for me.

Ricisan

I'm not really trying to reinvent anything. I'm just a guy having some fun with his hobbies. Some of the most significant advancements in engine technology were the result of some guy breaking from the norm and doing something unorthodox. Though there is nothing new to engines that I am doing here, it sure is fun to see what is possible from one of these cylinder heads. If the thing rolls down the road under its own power I still won't be disappointed, but phenomenal performance would be nice though :)
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline puppytrax

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2007, 03:18:43 PM »
I'm not really trying to reinvent anything. I'm just a guy having some fun with his hobbies.

Same here. I just like to make stuff!   ;D

If it works, great! But if it only looks good, that's OK too!  :D
...stock 1972 CB500 '500 Four' undergoing re-assembly...
...Stock 1972 CL450 'Scrambler' also being re-assembled...

Offline Ricisan

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2007, 03:22:04 PM »
Sorry if I sounded negative. At some point, you will want to gain extra flow. I wish I could remember exact phrase. I didn't tell you what to do???

Ricisan

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2007, 03:50:01 PM »
Sorry if I sounded negative. At some point, you will want to gain extra flow. I wish I could remember exact phrase. I didn't tell you what to do???

Ricisan

Oh no offence taken. I appreciate all input on this project. I have done a lot of research on this head to see what has been done in the past. It seems that it has not gotten nearly as much attention as the larger displacement machines so there just might be some uncharted territory here? Only time will tell I guess.
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2007, 04:31:50 PM »
hei speedy

good to see you here! once sent you an email through ebay about the porting mods I am doing to my 500 racer. keeping my fingers crossed for you!
I am going quite a lot more conservative here. managed to get a nice 12 degrees of downdraft without going into welding, so a bit envious of your planned 30 degrees. my mikunis spacing lets me get fully strait ports (looking from above) so that's pretty nice already.
wanted to ask you if you could send me a high rez photo of that sectioned head. a side view from an even lower angle would be even better as it could help me a lot with my porting work.
going to weld this week my custom made manifold and will be posting pics too.

must say that as much as I like the 30 degrees downdraught idea, I have a big question mark about 32 mm carbs for a 125 cc cylinder
even 500 gp mv agustas fours had 29-30 mm carbs and these were four valve dohc very shortstroke designs.....
dont remember the carb size on the honda 500-4 racers of the 60's but I doubt if even those 15,000 rpm beasts had 32's
cheers from milan
TG
« Last Edit: March 11, 2007, 04:59:31 PM by turboguzzi »

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 05:18:18 PM »
hei speedy

good to see you here! once sent you an email through ebay about the porting mods I am doing to my 500 racer. keeping my fingers crossed for you!
I am going quite a lot more conservative here. managed to get a nice 12 degrees of downdraft without going into welding, so a bit envious of your planned 30 degrees. my mikunis spacing lets me get fully strait ports (looking from above) so that's pretty nice already.
wanted to ask you if you could send me a high rez photo of that sectioned head. a side view from an even lower angle would be even better as it could help me a lot with my porting work.
going to weld this week my custom made manifold and will be posting pics too.

must say that as much as I like the 30 degrees downdraught idea, I have a big question mark about 32 mm carbs for a 125 cc cylinder
even 500 gp mv agustas fours had 29-30 mm carbs and these were four valve dohc very shortstroke designs.....
dont remember the carb size on the honda 500-4 racers of the 60's but I doubt if even those 15,000 rpm beasts had 32's
cheers from milan
TG

Hey there! Yes I remember your email. I typed up a huge response but when I tried to send it discovered that I had gone over the character limit. I shrunk it down until it would go but I'm not sure if you got it. I will get some better pics and send them to you by next weekend. Might post some better ones on here as well. I also have a cross section of a CB750 piston that I will put on here as I will be using those for my big bore kit. 32mm seems big indeed but this engine will be 600cc. Even with the added displacement 32mm would still present problems at lower rpm however the VE series are vacuum slide carbs so they don't really become 32mm until the engine is ready for it. This engine will be used mainly on the street so I think the use of CV carbs will have some benefit. I would like to build a 29mm version of this head for use in competition 500cc engines that will use smoothbore carbs so we will see how this one goes. I would like to see some pics of your project. Before I decided to do this one I was working on a similar build to yours that used custom bolt on manifolds but they had no downdraft, just straightened the carbs to the ports. Think I still have them somewhere.
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

masonryman

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 06:04:11 PM »
You know, sometimes I do stuff just because I can, But I don't have access to toys nearly that cool.

Good luck
Mark

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 08:00:03 PM »
You know, sometimes I do stuff just because I can, But I don't have access to toys nearly that cool.

Good luck
Mark

That's what it's all about. I have been following your exhaust build. I would love to hear that thing run!
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

masonryman

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2007, 05:51:12 PM »
I will start it soon and post somewhere, last weekend I got distracted rebuilding the carbs on my daily rider

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2007, 08:52:08 PM »
Here are some better cross section pictures. The piston is a CB750K. I don't have any spare F pistons but I really need to get my hands on some! If anyone has some used F slugs laying around I would be very interested in obtaining them. I cut this one to get the thickness as I will be using modified 750 pistins for this engine. It is a tried and true mod however the larger valve size requires adequate valve pockets to be machined and I wanted to make sure there was plenty of meat and there certainly is!
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline rhinoracer

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2007, 09:21:21 PM »
I'm impressed at the amount of work you're putting into the project to end up with a single ported head.

Based on your nickname I'm guessing you're looking for an advantage over other racers, so good luck there. Let us know how it all ends up.
Baja native.

Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2007, 09:38:14 PM »
I'm impressed at the amount of work you're putting into the project to end up with a single ported head.

Based on your nickname I'm guessing you're looking for an advantage over other racers, so good luck there. Let us know how it all ends up.

I'm actually planning on building several of these. The first one will certainly be the most work but I am taking notes along the way and once all of the jigs are built other heads will be much easier. I have some local friends that will be running these once the prototype is finished.
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid

Offline Soos

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2007, 01:24:22 AM »
Looks like you know what you are doing, I'm interested too see how this works in the end!

Keep up the god work, and don't scrap too many heads! :) :)

l8r
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Offline maksuttt

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2007, 04:02:24 AM »
2speedracer741: I have spare set of F0 (1975) pistons in bad condition and can share one if you need.
CB-750F 1975
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Offline FunJimmy

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2007, 08:29:47 PM »
Anything new?
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2007, 06:44:36 AM »
yea,this is good stuff
mark
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Offline speedracer741

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Re: The CB550 downdraft port project
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2007, 12:29:40 AM »
Well, I have been pretty busy this summer as may be noticed by my absence from the board recently. The brake rotor jobs have had me completely buried and are starting to slow down now. Plus the shop I work for has been giving me way too much port work to do, which I do flat rate on my own time at home. Bike heads, import cars and American iron, you name it I have been grinding every night for the last 3 months! The aluminum welder has left our shop and gone on to greater things and since I don't excell in that art the prototype 550 head has been at a standstill. I am however working on the prototype set of oversize valves and hope to have them completed within the next couple of weeks. I am now myspace and youtube literate so I can post video clips of various machine operations, mistakes and all....HA HA! My myspace page is: http://www.myspace.com/mpwrpdx  And no, the profile picture is not of me! It's a joke for some of my friends. Most of the pics I have uploaded are of BMW car stuff I did this summer but I will be putting up lots of bike engine work pictures over the next few months. The keeper groove grinder is up and running in its finished state now and has produced a few sets of valves, ran it today actually. I just installed a new chuck in the lathe as well. Since the 550 valves will be ready long before the head I need to find a donor engine to try them out in. Any volunteers?
Chris

'74 CB750K
'76 CB750F
'75 CB550K
'71 CB500K
'77 KZ1000 x2
'78 KZ650 TURBO
'80 KZ750LTD
'78 GS550E/650 hybrid