Author Topic: Weights of Internal Components Documented - Finally CB750 K4 (Read 3305 times)

RRRToolSolutions · « **on:** March 11, 2007, 04:31:48 pm »

Guys, sorry it took me so long to get these checked and posted. My bike was a running example of an 836cc with 615 miles on it at 8PM last night. Now it won't start....

Actually I just got all of the parts in late last week and did not want the bike down waiting on parts. The rods are run in batches and I caught them in-between having stock and new production. It's a shame the rods can't be seen once installed. They are real eye-candy. Maybe in the near future we'll have some of that "transparent aluminum" Scottie made up on StarTrek for the whales so we can look through our cases while running. For now, we don't want to see the internals while running since that would mean a busted case. To turn the 10,500~11,500 rpm I feel this porting is capable of, the Carillos were recommeded. What really shocks me is that they are actually lighter than the stock rods by 30 + grams. Lighter yet they torque to 45 lbs for the desired bolt stretch, while the stock rods/bolts/nuts torque to 14 lbs. The weight control on them is equally impressive.

Anyway, here is the chart I said I'd post. If anyone has other pistons/size data I'd be interested in getting it from you. These Wiseco pistons, pins, and rings were taken out of the bike today. They are the standard Wiseco 836cc big-bore kit pieces. The pin weight differences between Wiseco and stock surprised me - almost 10% increase just from density or inside diameter. Are the stock pins considered a weak link?

BWaller, Jerry - thanks for the data. Mike Rieck - thanks for the dynocharts a few months back to illustrate the potential of a ported engine. Seeing the charts and feeling my front-end raising under power at 8,000 was all I needed to get inspired. I really want to send a special thanks to Buzz of Dynoman. This guy is just 1 heck-of-a nice fella and has really helped with parts and plenty of advice.

One last little "plug" - it was so nice to be able to un-bolt the top rails and remove the head cover, the head, the cylinders, pistons, clutch, alternator, shift cover - then simply remove the mounting bolts and "lift" the engine out wiout scratching the powdercoat. My son grabbed 1 side and I had the other. A 10 second job. The way Honda should have done it.

I've got 3 kits left. I do not think there will be anymore. Certainly not at the $135 price with shipping included. I've got about $150 invested by the time I ship. This is and was a way to help Charles, my retiring machinist friend.

Regards,
Gordon

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #1 on:** March 11, 2007, 05:23:37 pm »

Salivating now!! Looks great and I like to see the weight difference in the rods. My stock crank weighed 21.3lb before shipping to APE. It will return weighing less but will have the Carillos installed. Guess we'll have to deduct the weight of your rods and bearings to get a final crank weight.

Got that thing running yet?

Oh yeah, where has Sam been too?

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #2 on:** March 11, 2007, 05:58:16 pm »

I'd like to see where you're supposed to take weight off the pistons. Can someone post a pick of where and what tool works best. I assume a milling machine would work as long as you show me a surface the cutter can access. Swapping pins won't get me where I want to be. That #1 is 1.9 grams away from the lightest piston and the largest pin difference is .3 grams so it will have to be lightened. I'll attempt to get them within .1 by swapping the pins as needed. Then I'll finish it by taking the heaviest piston assembly and the lightest rod so hopefully I can meet the goal.

Thanks guys.

Jim F · « **Reply #3 on:** March 11, 2007, 07:26:01 pm »

If you look at some new pistons like GSXR 1000 or any of the new bikes that have had there engines pulled for what ever reason
the skirts on the pin side have been machined away so all you have is a small area that gives you very little friction and not
allot of added weight

check out these pistons from JE and look at the cut outs and thatwill give you an idea of how to make a piston lighter

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JE-PISTON-SUZUKI-1981-1983-GS-1100-PART-222100_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ35595QQitemZ110007985489QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #4 on:** March 11, 2007, 08:52:34 pm »

It sure would help if you knew how much aluminum 1.6gm represents beforehand. Wish I had the answer. Perhaps off the bottom of the skirt? Why don't you experiment with an old piston and a Dremel to see what 1.6gm actually looks like? It would be nice if they were equal weights. How close do the pros come? Is Big Jay lurking? If he is I'd also like to ask him to have his guys weigh my crank before & after lightening.

justfours · « **Reply #5 on:** March 11, 2007, 09:30:23 pm »

I was told by a drag car/hot rod guy that he balances pistons by using a Dremel grinding or sanding on the inside of the piston skirt. I did it whem I rebuilt my stock engine. stock pistons are pretty close so not much was needed, but I figured it couldnt hurt. hope it helps.

heffay · « **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2007, 10:56:29 pm »

bummer on the no start $:-\$ any leads?

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #7 on:** March 12, 2007, 06:12:37 pm »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 11, 2007, 05:23:37 pm

Salivating now!! Looks great and I like to see the weight difference in the rods. My stock crank weighed 21.3lb before shipping to APE. It will return weighing less but will have the Carillos installed. Guess we'll have to deduct the weight of your rods and bearings to get a final crank weight.

Got that thing running yet?

Oh yeah, where has Sam been too?

I can't work 12 hours a night, 7 days a week....they won't let me

What have I missed ?

Sam.

MRieck · « **Reply #8 on:** March 12, 2007, 06:24:37 pm »

It's tough to lighten old pistons secondary to thrust angles and the ultimate truth that aluminum doesn't way anything. Yoshimura pins were always very light secondary to nice taper....nice stuff even today! I swear...you could cut the skirts in half and gain 2.5 grams. JE does list the weight for their pistons. Watch it on 45lbs on the rod bolts....I generally get the stretch before that figure Gordon (around 35 or 36). Your frame kit is the balls.....whay should I do?

Mike

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #9 on:** March 12, 2007, 07:05:26 pm »

Mike, I've got to check all of con rod bearing clearances to be sure I order the correct ones so I'll know how much to go before final assembly. I'll keep the micrometer handy while going up in 5 lbs increments. 45 is the max torque for the .005~.007 stretch.

All you have to do is send me a PM and tell me where to send the kit if you're serious.

Regards,
Gordon

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #10 on:** March 13, 2007, 07:57:14 am »

Oh yeah Mike, trust me, you ARE serious about Gordon's kit. SWEET! Better grab one while available. Hey, I'm working this week so I can pay you so you can pay Gordon.

SAM,
You got that thing going yet?!

Sam Green Racing · « **Reply #11 on:** March 13, 2007, 03:55:25 pm »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 13, 2007, 07:57:14 am

Oh yeah Mike, trust me, you ARE serious about Gordon's kit. SWEET! Better grab one while available. Hey, I'm working this week so I can pay you so you can pay Gordon.

SAM,
You got that thing going yet?!

Yes It's up and running (only 20 mins static) should have video footage online next week.

Sam.

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #12 on:** March 13, 2007, 04:37:54 pm »

Excellent news Sam !

HondaMan · « **Reply #13 on:** March 13, 2007, 06:49:28 pm »

Great post, nice work!

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #14 on:** March 13, 2007, 07:38:45 pm »

I'm still not sure what/how to make changes to # 1 piston to get it to the same weights as the others. This evening I soaked all 4 in 2" of clean lacquer thinner (powerful stuff- melts almost anything you put it in) and it softened all of the carbon and let me be sure I had all of the oil and deposits removed- blew them dry with compressed air. I weighed them again and exactly the same results. Those little specs of carbon stains in the valve reliefs weighed so little that all of the tenths came up the same. - So I'm 100% sure I've got 1 heavy piston by 1.9 grams. Swapping the pins did get me down to 1.2 grams of #'s 3 and # 4 after pin swapping.

I need photos of lightened pistons so I know where and where not to take material. I don't want to cut the skirt.

Anyone have a link or photos, please?

Thanks,
Gordon

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #15 on:** March 14, 2007, 08:10:55 am »

Gordon,

I'm curious. Did you contact Wiseco to see what their policy is about matching weights/balancing or any suggestions from them on how to do so? Perhaps they use the old "horseshoes or hand grenades" approach and close is good enough. Maybe they will replace the heavy one if you provide the weight you need.

Keep up the meticiously good work!

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #16 on:** March 14, 2007, 05:43:36 pm »

Jerry, I wasn't too happy with their reply on the factory balance issue. They say anything within 2 grams "is" balanced

They did help me out on the weight removal. I can gracefully pull it from the underside of the dome using a small rotary tool - just don't leave any sharp edges and just fan a rounded sanding disc or stone to remove the desired weight. The pin is already up in the ring land and the skirts short. I don't plan on a turbo or nitrous, so I'll go slow and check often. I've got a huge assortment of Dremel bits and wheels - so it should be a piece of cake. I'll do a before/after incase someone else wants to do the same.

Regards,
Gordon

MRieck · « **Reply #17 on:** March 14, 2007, 06:14:43 pm »

Quote from: Ilbikes on March 14, 2007, 05:43:36 pm

Jerry, I wasn't too happy with their reply on the factory balance issue. They say anything within 2 grams "is" balanced

They did help me out on the weight removal. I can gracefully pull it from the underside of the dome using a small rotary tool - just don't leave any sharp edges and just fan a rounded sanding disc or stone to remove the desired weight. The pin is already up in the ring land and the skirts short. I don't plan on a turbo or nitrous, so I'll go slow and check often. I've got a huge assortment of Dremel bits and wheels - so it should be a piece of cake. I'll do a before/after incase someone else wants to do the same.

Regards,
Gordon

2 grams...on forged aluminum, CNC'd parts.

rhinoracer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 14, 2007, 09:09:50 pm »

Maybe I'm not getting the story right, but if steel is heavier than aluminum why don't you shave off the con rods instead of the pistons. You can deburr and polish, you can chamfer and fillet, all of which will reduce stress and crack prone areas.

You can chamfer the stud heads or you can even install slightly longer studs on the rest of the rods and then trim away until perfectly balanced.

Just my $0.02

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #19 on:** March 15, 2007, 06:55:44 am »

Rhino - I'm not screwing with $1,000 worth of rods that are already perfect. I can buy 4 -5 sets of 4 pistons for the cost of these Carillos. Carillo does not want them modified. The piston or pin is going on a diet.

Regards,
Gordon

RRRToolSolutions · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2007, 08:44:27 am »

Well, I spoke with a good friend of mine and he said the pin boss area was made for factory balancing. You can see where Wiseco made their attempts at it. I went slow and removed one of the corner blocks at the pin boss area and noticed it was worth .3 grams (1 pin circlip weighs .3 grams) - the other 3 corner blocks were removed the same way. I left a nice radious and took nothing off of the diameter of the piston tower's top or sides and onlu 2-3 thousandths from the skirt area adjacent to the boss area. This was more of a finishing step and not one to remove weight (they just look scuffed from the final light sanding wheel used to dress it up). I wanted 220 grams piston/rings/pin/1 circlip and stopped at 219.9. I'm happy for the time spent (after all it's the hobby - not the riding I enjoy).

Here is how it matches up in the end 1 thru 4 respectfully --

Unmodified 836 Wiseco piston/pin/rings/1 circlip - March 11th, 2007
220.7 - 218.9 - 219.5 - 219.1

Final 836 Wiseco piston/pin/rings/1 circlip = March 18, 07
219.9 - 219.0 - 219.1 - 219.2

Carillo Rods/bolts/bearings (stock con rod locations and rods matched to best balance -
340.2 - 341.1 - 340.7 - 340.7

Total reciprocating assembly balance (using the original piston/rings and bearing locations, but matching new components for weight) -
560.1 - 560.1 - 559.8 - 559.9

Mike - thanks for the tip on the manifold fittings. I just hope those big Harley vacuum caps don't slow this thing down..

Regards,
Gordon

Big Jay · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2007, 12:42:51 am »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 11, 2007, 08:52:34 pm

It sure would help if you knew how much aluminum 1.6gm represents beforehand. Wish I had the answer. Perhaps off the bottom of the skirt? Why don't you experiment with an old piston and a Dremel to see what 1.6gm actually looks like? It would be nice if they were equal weights. How close do the pros come? Is Big Jay lurking? If he is I'd also like to ask him to have his guys weigh my crank before & after lightening.

We have a number of Hondas in house at present. What name is yours under. I will see that you get both weights.

Jay

Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:03:21 am »

Quote from: Big Jay on March 19, 2007, 12:42:51 am

Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 11, 2007, 08:52:34 pm
It sure would help if you knew how much aluminum 1.6gm represents beforehand. Wish I had the answer. Perhaps off the bottom of the skirt? Why don't you experiment with an old piston and a Dremel to see what 1.6gm actually looks like? It would be nice if they were equal weights. How close do the pros come? Is Big Jay lurking? If he is I'd also like to ask him to have his guys weigh my crank before & after lightening.

We have a number of Hondas in house at present. What name is yours under. I will see that you get both weights.

Jay

Thanks Jay. My crank is listed as Gerald (Jerry) Griffin. Colorado Springs.

Big Jay · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:02:14 pm »

Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 19, 2007, 09:03:21 am

Quote from: Big Jay on March 19, 2007, 12:42:51 am
Quote from: RxmanGriff on March 11, 2007, 08:52:34 pm
It sure would help if you knew how much aluminum 1.6gm represents beforehand. Wish I had the answer. Perhaps off the bottom of the skirt? Why don't you experiment with an old piston and a Dremel to see what 1.6gm actually looks like? It would be nice if they were equal weights. How close do the pros come? Is Big Jay lurking? If he is I'd also like to ask him to have his guys weigh my crank before & after lightening.

We have a number of Hondas in house at present. What name is yours under. I will see that you get both weights.

Jay

Thanks Jay. My crank is listed as Gerald (Jerry) Griffin. Colorado Springs.

Yours is 21.15 lbs as received.

Jay

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Author Topic: Weights of Internal Components Documented - Finally CB750 K4 (Read 3305 times)