Author Topic: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions  (Read 2955 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2023, 06:50:32 PM »
Except the following is what Mark wrote in a previous post in this thread....

"This involves drilling the little holes in Keihin's "needle jet holder" (which holds the needle jet up inside the carb throat) that everyone else always called the 'emulsion tube' out to a little larger size. There are 2 sizes of holes: the upper ones (nearest the carb body) are smaller at about 0.025" and are OK: it is the lower ones that became an issue, more so as gasoline became more refined as our EPA got involved with their recipes. At first (1969) the 750 K0 sandcast and [prior to about 8/69 production) early production 750s came with #120 main jets and aeration holes of size 0.0325" in the lower positions: this proved to not aerate the gas very well and above about 1000 feet altitude would foul the stock D8ES spark plugs in a week of city riding."

Ergo my confusion...

Yep, my mistake above, from talking and typing at the same time!  :-[
I fixed my post above.
The tiny holes can stay the same, the larger holes are the ones that need to be drilled out some. Drilling out the tiny holes doesn't do anything, as the airflow thru the carb when those are most active is so turbulent that they have little effect. Those do their thing typically above 1/2 throttle, or around 5000 RPM, when the slide opening is the major factor, not the mixers.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline newday777

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2023, 10:32:39 AM »
Except the following is what Mark wrote in a previous post in this thread....

"This involves drilling the little holes in Keihin's "needle jet holder" (which holds the needle jet up inside the carb throat) that everyone else always called the 'emulsion tube' out to a little larger size. There are 2 sizes of holes: the upper ones (nearest the carb body) are smaller at about 0.025" and are OK: it is the lower ones that became an issue, more so as gasoline became more refined as our EPA got involved with their recipes. At first (1969) the 750 K0 sandcast and [prior to about 8/69 production) early production 750s came with #120 main jets and aeration holes of size 0.0325" in the lower positions: this proved to not aerate the gas very well and above about 1000 feet altitude would foul the stock D8ES spark plugs in a week of city riding."

Ergo my confusion...

Yep, my mistake above, from talking and typing at the same time!  :-[
I fixed my post above.
The tiny holes can stay the same, the larger holes are the ones that need to be drilled out some. Drilling out the tiny holes doesn't do anything, as the airflow thru the carb when those are most active is so turbulent that they have little effect. Those do their thing typically above 1/2 throttle, or around 5000 RPM, when the slide opening is the major factor, not the mixers.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Does this apply to the 400F also? There's a new thread today looking for help and this came to mind as it might be his problem too?
400F lean condition
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,192354.msg2202792/topicseen.html#new
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #52 on: April 10, 2023, 11:08:06 AM »
Except the following is what Mark wrote in a previous post in this thread....

"This involves drilling the little holes in Keihin's "needle jet holder" (which holds the needle jet up inside the carb throat) that everyone else always called the 'emulsion tube' out to a little larger size. There are 2 sizes of holes: the upper ones (nearest the carb body) are smaller at about 0.025" and are OK: it is the lower ones that became an issue, more so as gasoline became more refined as our EPA got involved with their recipes. At first (1969) the 750 K0 sandcast and [prior to about 8/69 production) early production 750s came with #120 main jets and aeration holes of size 0.0325" in the lower positions: this proved to not aerate the gas very well and above about 1000 feet altitude would foul the stock D8ES spark plugs in a week of city riding."

Ergo my confusion...

Yep, my mistake above, from talking and typing at the same time!  :-[
I fixed my post above.
The tiny holes can stay the same, the larger holes are the ones that need to be drilled out some. Drilling out the tiny holes doesn't do anything, as the airflow thru the carb when those are most active is so turbulent that they have little effect. Those do their thing typically above 1/2 throttle, or around 5000 RPM, when the slide opening is the major factor, not the mixers.

Thanks for clearing that up!

Does this apply to the 400F also? There's a new thread today looking for help and this came to mind as it might be his problem too?
400F lean condition
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,192354.msg2202792/topicseen.html#new

I read and commented in that post: I don't think this is the same issue. Carbs don't suddenly "go bad" like that.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2023, 04:31:32 PM »
The old slow jet and the new one from the recently purchased kit. Both marked 40...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2023, 04:38:10 PM »
The old slow jet and the new one from the recently purchased kit. Both marked 40...
Are those aeration holes the same size?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2023, 04:45:19 PM »
The old slow jet and the new one from the recently purchased kit. Both marked 40...
Are those aeration holes the same size?
The holes are not the same size. The ones on the new jet are about half the size of the old jet.  I didn't actually measure them but I could...

Offline WideAWAKE

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2023, 07:16:00 PM »
Are your new ones genuine Keihin?

If not, it’s a crap shoot.

I was given a tip from a shop owner to measure ALL your new jets, even genuine. As there is more than a slight chance they are off.

Shop mainly uses dellorto carbs but I’d suspect, especially with generic knock offs of any brand, that they may not measure up what they are stamped.

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2023, 01:29:47 AM »
Are your new ones genuine Keihin?
The new ones are from Yamiya...
Do I use the new ones or the old ones??
Yamiya says they have sold 3000 sets.

Offline ekpent

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2023, 05:08:53 AM »
Do the old ones have a stylized 'K' logo stamped on the side, don't see one in the picture. Just wondering if that one is an original part. 

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #59 on: April 13, 2023, 06:48:42 AM »
Do the old ones have a stylized 'K' logo stamped on the side, don't see one in the picture. Just wondering if that one is an original part. 
I will check close tonight but I don't recall seeing that logo. I am beginning to suspect that they were not original parts. The floats in the carbs were plastic. From what I think I have found out is the holes in the slow jet are supposed to be 0.8 mm (0.031"). I will measure them tonight. Also I think I have heard that the slow jet is metering fuel in low speed.

Offline WideAWAKE

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #60 on: April 13, 2023, 08:03:31 AM »
If you got plastic floats there is a decent chance they got the jets that came in the rebuild kit with the plastic floats (if they are the round plastic ones and not the block ones from a later k model).

I have some jets in the shed I can measure so you can compare what you got.

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #61 on: April 13, 2023, 08:21:40 AM »
If you got plastic floats there is a decent chance they got the jets that came in the rebuild kit with the plastic floats (if they are the round plastic ones and not the block ones from a later k model).

I have some jets in the shed I can measure so you can compare what you got.
The floats were the ones in the attached pic. Any help is appreciated !  As a matter of fact you can see the slow jets in that pic that were in the carbs...
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 08:24:28 AM by Scootch »

Offline WideAWAKE

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2023, 08:59:04 PM »
I couldn’t find my gauge pins (I’m packing up my shed at the moment to move it).

But I got a caliper measurement of .034 (I’d imagine they really measure that.031)

Here is what they look like and what the original stamp looks like.

Also, your floats don’t look like the cheap ones at come in rebuild kits. Look like later oem floats, at least from what I can see in the pic.


Offline PeWe

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2023, 11:10:28 PM »
About drilling these tubes.

Drilling the hole closer to main jet, no problem, low speed "bubbling" 4-4 exhaust not solved either.
Airscrews could not change it, rich to lean settings did not matter.

Drilling the upper 2, no good, had to replace the tubes with stock not drilled.
1.0mm drill used.

The middle not drilled hole is 0.6mm.
Here the drilled at left, not drilled to the right.
Used in K6 carbs, stock engine.
The old ones need to be soldered and drilled with smaller drill.
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CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2023, 02:29:41 AM »
I couldn’t find my gauge pins (I’m packing up my shed at the moment to move it).

But I got a caliper measurement of .034 (I’d imagine they really measure that.031)

Here is what they look like and what the original stamp looks like.

Also, your floats don’t look like the cheap ones at come in rebuild kits. Look like later oem floats, at least from what I can see in the pic.
Thank you for your input. There are no markings like in your picture on the slow jets that were in the carbs in my bike. So it then appears that they were changed at one point. I don't know what the floats looked like in the original carbs that came out of the factory but my bike now has parts from the Yamiya kit. The floats were in genuine Honda packaging. I got the impression from Yamiya that they produced or sourced the other hardware in their rebuild kit.

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2023, 02:51:52 AM »
About drilling these tubes.

Drilling the hole closer to main jet, no problem, low speed "bubbling" 4-4 exhaust not solved either.
Airscrews could not change it, rich to lean settings did not matter.

Drilling the upper 2, no good, had to replace the tubes with stock not drilled.
1.0mm drill used.

The middle not drilled hole is 0.6mm.
Here the drilled at left, not drilled to the right.
Used in K6 carbs, stock engine.
The old ones need to be soldered and drilled with smaller drill.
Thanks for the info. I am going to start out with using the hardware in the Yamiya kit as is. They are insistent that their hardware will provide good results. They said to use their #110 main jets to start. They also included #115 and #120 main jets in their kit. They said to place the needle clip at the middle (#3) position. I haven't been able to go farther at this point because had to order new air box. Some of the needle clips were in various positions in the needles as I found them. Apparently the PO attempted to alter the fuel/air mix with the clip position. Everything I have read and heard so far is that the #120 main jets and holes in the slow jets are way too large for a stock setup. We shall see...

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2023, 12:41:37 PM »
You have it right: the #120 mainjets are too rich for today's fuels. They were marginally too rich for the 1970s fuels, too, but Honda was afraid of riders buying Regular gas instead of Premium when the 750 first appeared, so their Warranty guys overrode the Engineers, 'twas the scuttlebutt at the time. By the end of the sandcast, though, they were already showing up (most, not all) with #115 mains, and by the end of the K0 they were sometimes #110, too, with no explanations. The needles in the K0 bikes were all in the middle notch, even the sandcasts, which sometimes had different (shorter) slides and needles from most!

All of the replacement floats I've seen from Honda since the 1990s are the plastic ones. They will work, but act slightly differently (i.e., slower to settle closed) from the brass ones. Specifically, the brass ones were always set staggered by -1.0mm on one side (the "sidestand" side of the bike) to 25mm for that float, with 26mm for the opposite one, and this practice remained when the K1 carbs started getting plastic floats near their end of production. On those floats, the tab that pushes closed the float valve is also at an angle, mimicking the offset floats' "tilt". This type of float-height setup is/was found in the carbs that have the tiny sliver of a raised casting inside the gasket area, in between the edges of the gasket surface and the floats. This is also the reference fixture for setting the floats in that carb. Note these are #657A carbs with the crank-style throttle link, and most of the cable-style carbs, that contain this little 'edge'.

At the end of the 657A carbs came their "B" revision, along with the HM341 pipes. From the Old Factory these had #115 mainjets at the very beginning (like 9/71 thru about 11/71 builds), with #110 from the New Factory: the cams were also slightly different in the engines between these factories, hence the jetting change (and resulting confusion in the intervening 50 years!). All the way thru the K3 model, the mainjet was #5 richer in the Old Factory bikes, with #115 or (after about 12/72 builds) #110, with #110 or #105 respectively. All the K4 and later ones were #105 in the roundtop carbs of all numbers (like 086a, 087a, 7A, etc.). All of these carbs in HM341-equipped bikes raised the needles 1 notch to slot #4 to improve on a slight flat spot at about 1800-2400 RPM that is caused by the increased back pressure disturbing the flow thru the carbs until full spark advance is reached: this is why, 50 years later, the too-soon advance of the spark with heat-annealed softer springs in those advancers causes low-speed stumbling and dark sparkplugs now. Tightening up the advancer springs makes the carbs behave better (honest!), or else you can drop the needles back to the center notch, which sort of works (with a LOT more effort).

All of the K4/5/6 bikes had the same jetting from the factory, #105 mainjets and #40 pilots with #4 notch on the needles, and plastic floats. The floats were both set at the same 26mm height and the gasket surface (sans gasket) was used for the 0 height reference, in between the notches you can see in the main body: these carbs were made in better molds, too. The float tangs in the later bikes were all set parallel to the plane of the float bracket, no more tricky angled tab there. Note that things changed with the F0/1 bikes with the roundtops, but that's another topic.

So, when the internet exspurts tell you all they know is absolutely true about the 750's carbs' jetting without having seen the entire parade of these bikes, you can now be smarter. ;)

In all cases today, the gasoline changes we have require less octane to burn at the designed-in fuel-burn rate. So, don't run Premium gas in city riding, or you will suffer fouled plugs, or at least shorter life with them. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2023, 01:47:09 PM »
Thank you Mark for increasing my knowledge. I love this stuff! Oh and I received your book today 👏🙂

Offline WideAWAKE

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #68 on: April 15, 2023, 06:47:50 PM »
I couldn’t find my gauge pins (I’m packing up my shed at the moment to move it).

But I got a caliper measurement of .034 (I’d imagine they really measure that.031)

Here is what they look like and what the original stamp looks like.

Also, your floats don’t look like the cheap ones at come in rebuild kits. Look like later oem floats, at least from what I can see in the pic.

Your floats look correct as to what was originally in there.

Ps. Found my gauge pins. - holes in the slow jet measure .035
Thank you for your input. There are no markings like in your picture on the slow jets that were in the carbs in my bike. So it then appears that they were changed at one point. I don't know what the floats looked like in the original carbs that came out of the factory but my bike now has parts from the Yamiya kit. The floats were in genuine Honda packaging. I got the impression from Yamiya that they produced or sourced the other hardware in their rebuild kit.

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2023, 05:03:20 AM »
So these are the needles I found in the carbs when I took them apart. The 3 on the left are marked D17. The one on the right is a Keihin needle (because it has the stylized K) and is marked 2720. The clips are in the position I found them but I stupidly did not note which carb the Keihin 2720 needle came out of - because I was not expecting one to be different.  The new needles that came in the Yamiya kit are also marked D17. So the carbs now have all the same needles in them...

I found this on the Keihin site:
1/4 to 3/4 throttle jet needle: the jet needle is comprised of five major elements.

1. straight diameter section: in keihin carbs either the last two digit or the last letter denote the diameter of the needle. The higher the last two numbers the leaner the needle the lower the letter the richer the needle. By going to a thinner needle there is a larger area between the jet needle and needle jet supplying a richer mixture.

2. length of the straight section: this determines at which point the needle taper will start relative to the clip position. If you have to run your clip in the highest position a needle with a longer straight section will need to be used.

3. needle clip position: this works in conjunction with the length of the straight section. If the engine is too rich above a quarter throttle raising the needle clip (#1 in illus.) will lean the mixture.

4. needle taper: a larger taper will result in a leaner mixture in the first half of the taper and a richer mixture in the last half of the needle. For example, a 1.34 taper will be richer in the first half and leaner in the second half of the taper than a 1.45 taper needle.

5. number of tapers: the needle can have one or more tapers. The number of tapers is not usually changed.

Offline bryanj

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2023, 07:38:20 AM »
I wouls the D17 are an aftermarket part and i have never seen a Honda with the clips on the top groove from the factury
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Offline JamesH

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1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2023, 08:28:05 AM »
You have it right: the #120 mainjets are too rich for today's fuels. They were marginally too rich for the 1970s fuels, too, but Honda was afraid of riders buying Regular gas instead of Premium when the 750 first appeared, so their Warranty guys overrode the Engineers, 'twas the scuttlebutt at the time. By the end of the sandcast, though, they were already showing up (most, not all) with #115 mains, and by the end of the K0 they were sometimes #110, too, with no explanations. The needles in the K0 bikes were all in the middle notch, even the sandcasts, which sometimes had different (shorter) slides and needles from most!

All of the replacement floats I've seen from Honda since the 1990s are the plastic ones. They will work, but act slightly differently (i.e., slower to settle closed) from the brass ones. Specifically, the brass ones were always set staggered by -1.0mm on one side (the "sidestand" side of the bike) to 25mm for that float, with 26mm for the opposite one, and this practice remained when the K1 carbs started getting plastic floats near their end of production. On those floats, the tab that pushes closed the float valve is also at an angle, mimicking the offset floats' "tilt". This type of float-height setup is/was found in the carbs that have the tiny sliver of a raised casting inside the gasket area, in between the edges of the gasket surface and the floats. This is also the reference fixture for setting the floats in that carb. Note these are #657A carbs with the crank-style throttle link, and most of the cable-style carbs, that contain this little 'edge'.

At the end of the 657A carbs came their "B" revision, along with the HM341 pipes. From the Old Factory these had #115 mainjets at the very beginning (like 9/71 thru about 11/71 builds), with #110 from the New Factory: the cams were also slightly different in the engines between these factories, hence the jetting change (and resulting confusion in the intervening 50 years!). All the way thru the K3 model, the mainjet was #5 richer in the Old Factory bikes, with #115 or (after about 12/72 builds) #110, with #110 or #105 respectively. All the K4 and later ones were #105 in the roundtop carbs of all numbers (like 086a, 087a, 7A, etc.). All of these carbs in HM341-equipped bikes raised the needles 1 notch to slot #4 to improve on a slight flat spot at about 1800-2400 RPM that is caused by the increased back pressure disturbing the flow thru the carbs until full spark advance is reached: this is why, 50 years later, the too-soon advance of the spark with heat-annealed softer springs in those advancers causes low-speed stumbling and dark sparkplugs now. Tightening up the advancer springs makes the carbs behave better (honest!), or else you can drop the needles back to the center notch, which sort of works (with a LOT more effort).

All of the K4/5/6 bikes had the same jetting from the factory, #105 mainjets and #40 pilots with #4 notch on the needles, and plastic floats. The floats were both set at the same 26mm height and the gasket surface (sans gasket) was used for the 0 height reference, in between the notches you can see in the main body: these carbs were made in better molds, too. The float tangs in the later bikes were all set parallel to the plane of the float bracket, no more tricky angled tab there. Note that things changed with the F0/1 bikes with the roundtops, but that's another topic.

So, when the internet exspurts tell you all they know is absolutely true about the 750's carbs' jetting without having seen the entire parade of these bikes, you can now be smarter. ;)

In all cases today, the gasoline changes we have require less octane to burn at the designed-in fuel-burn rate. So, don't run Premium gas in city riding, or you will suffer fouled plugs, or at least shorter life with them. ;)
@mark - just out of curiousity, given the nature of modern fuel combustion properties, and the advent of high levels of ethanol in our fuels, plus the lack of availability of quality ‘brass’ for the early K0/Sandcast carbs, what are your thoughts on using the internals from 657A/B and 086 series carbs (ie K1-K6) in K0 bodies (so the emulsion tube, 105/110 main jets, #40 pilot, main needle/needle seat, pilot air screw).

I have a K0 here in the Uk (completely stock restoration, running Yamiya HM300 no-no pipes) that I’m experiencing plug fouling issues with (running NGK D8ES plugs and possibly Keyster brass).

I have several sets of 657A/B and 086 carbs with decent brass - my thinking is to replace all the brass with later, fit some Denso X24ES-U plugs and re-baseline.

Be good to gauge your thoughts?


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Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2023, 05:29:06 PM »
I wouls the D17 are an aftermarket part and i have never seen a Honda with the clips on the top groove from the factury

Yeah, what he said: the "D17" are Keyster's needles. The Keihin needle is the #27201, look closely for the last digit.
The D17 requires the Keyster needle jet in the carb body, too, or else it can get stuck in that hole at fully-closed throttle. So, you may also have the Keyster needle jets down there, which won't mix with the Keihin needles, running too rich because the Keyster's hole is bigger (to clear their incorrect needles).

If you can't find the Keihin parts, I have seen a running bike with Keyster parts set up as:
D17 needles set in 2nd slot and entering the Keyster needle jet in the throat
140 mainjet (also Keyster)
#42 Keyster idle jet
Idle air screws set at 1-1/4 turn

The plugs ran almost white, but it ran. The top speed was around 85 MPH, though. Very lean.
On the plus side, that might pass Colorado emissions?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2023, 05:33:57 PM »
You have it right: the #120 mainjets are too rich for today's fuels. They were marginally too rich for the 1970s fuels, too, but Honda was afraid of riders buying Regular gas instead of Premium when the 750 first appeared, so their Warranty guys overrode the Engineers, 'twas the scuttlebutt at the time. By the end of the sandcast, though, they were already showing up (most, not all) with #115 mains, and by the end of the K0 they were sometimes #110, too, with no explanations. The needles in the K0 bikes were all in the middle notch, even the sandcasts, which sometimes had different (shorter) slides and needles from most!

All of the replacement floats I've seen from Honda since the 1990s are the plastic ones. They will work, but act slightly differently (i.e., slower to settle closed) from the brass ones. Specifically, the brass ones were always set staggered by -1.0mm on one side (the "sidestand" side of the bike) to 25mm for that float, with 26mm for the opposite one, and this practice remained when the K1 carbs started getting plastic floats near their end of production. On those floats, the tab that pushes closed the float valve is also at an angle, mimicking the offset floats' "tilt". This type of float-height setup is/was found in the carbs that have the tiny sliver of a raised casting inside the gasket area, in between the edges of the gasket surface and the floats. This is also the reference fixture for setting the floats in that carb. Note these are #657A carbs with the crank-style throttle link, and most of the cable-style carbs, that contain this little 'edge'.

At the end of the 657A carbs came their "B" revision, along with the HM341 pipes. From the Old Factory these had #115 mainjets at the very beginning (like 9/71 thru about 11/71 builds), with #110 from the New Factory: the cams were also slightly different in the engines between these factories, hence the jetting change (and resulting confusion in the intervening 50 years!). All the way thru the K3 model, the mainjet was #5 richer in the Old Factory bikes, with #115 or (after about 12/72 builds) #110, with #110 or #105 respectively. All the K4 and later ones were #105 in the roundtop carbs of all numbers (like 086a, 087a, 7A, etc.). All of these carbs in HM341-equipped bikes raised the needles 1 notch to slot #4 to improve on a slight flat spot at about 1800-2400 RPM that is caused by the increased back pressure disturbing the flow thru the carbs until full spark advance is reached: this is why, 50 years later, the too-soon advance of the spark with heat-annealed softer springs in those advancers causes low-speed stumbling and dark sparkplugs now. Tightening up the advancer springs makes the carbs behave better (honest!), or else you can drop the needles back to the center notch, which sort of works (with a LOT more effort).

All of the K4/5/6 bikes had the same jetting from the factory, #105 mainjets and #40 pilots with #4 notch on the needles, and plastic floats. The floats were both set at the same 26mm height and the gasket surface (sans gasket) was used for the 0 height reference, in between the notches you can see in the main body: these carbs were made in better molds, too. The float tangs in the later bikes were all set parallel to the plane of the float bracket, no more tricky angled tab there. Note that things changed with the F0/1 bikes with the roundtops, but that's another topic.

So, when the internet exspurts tell you all they know is absolutely true about the 750's carbs' jetting without having seen the entire parade of these bikes, you can now be smarter. ;)

In all cases today, the gasoline changes we have require less octane to burn at the designed-in fuel-burn rate. So, don't run Premium gas in city riding, or you will suffer fouled plugs, or at least shorter life with them. ;)
@mark - just out of curiousity, given the nature of modern fuel combustion properties, and the advent of high levels of ethanol in our fuels, plus the lack of availability of quality ‘brass’ for the early K0/Sandcast carbs, what are your thoughts on using the internals from 657A/B and 086 series carbs (ie K1-K6) in K0 bodies (so the emulsion tube, 105/110 main jets, #40 pilot, main needle/needle seat, pilot air screw).

I have a K0 here in the Uk (completely stock restoration, running Yamiya HM300 no-no pipes) that I’m experiencing plug fouling issues with (running NGK D8ES plugs and possibly Keyster brass).

I have several sets of 657A/B and 086 carbs with decent brass - my thinking is to replace all the brass with later, fit some Denso X24ES-U plugs and re-baseline.

Be good to gauge your thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

You're on the right track: the jets and needles of the same numbers didn't change through the whole 750K0-K6 series, despite the differing carb numbers. The [in]famous 086/a and 087/a series carbs originally came with "precision passages" (?) and little black plastic caps on the serrated idle mix screws to 'prevent tempering'. Other than that, they were all the same and can be used interchangeably. The numbers-vs-holesizes are all the same, too, so long as the little "K" shows on them somewhere.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Scootch

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Re: 1970 750 K0 Carb Questions
« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2023, 05:51:16 PM »
The Keihin needle is the #27201, look closely for the last digit.

Thanks for pointing this out. I did notice the last digit but didn't know if it was a digit or something else...