Author Topic: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - it made it!  (Read 14594 times)

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Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #175 on: September 02, 2023, 01:07:31 PM »
They're here! They're here!
The grooved bearings finally all arrived and I got a 62mm retainer clip. Now it can all go back together. :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline newday777

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #176 on: September 02, 2023, 01:25:08 PM »
Cool beans.
I got part of an order yesterday from south sound. Missing the float valves though.....on back order. 😢
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #177 on: September 02, 2023, 08:04:28 PM »
Yeah Sound Sound let me down on the parts for the next engine I've got lined up, too.. :(
But, after gathering parts from 3 countries and 4 States, I think I have enough to put it back together now.

Today's been interesting, at the least! I started with the oiling hole for the clutch, which was the 0.5mm hole Honda originally used in the end of the Sandcast (and some early K0) mainshaft to supply oil to the inside of the clutch plates. They obviously didn't think, at first, that the clutch needed much oil, so they didn't have holes in the inner clutch hub, either. It seems they thought the splash oil from the 1 hole in the mainshaft that feeds the 2 needle bearings (picture below) would be enough to also reach the clutch plates - but, this turned out to be wrong, as many K0/sandcast riders can tell you. The clutch became an IN-OUT box when the bike was ridden in city stop-and-go for very long, and only a quick 5+ mile ride on the hiway at 4000+ RPM would re-wet the plates and make shifting possible again - for a little while, anyway. The result was many mods to the clutch, one of which was the 'floating ring' on the hub (instead of the welded-on outer ring) with teeth that fit in between the top cork plates and one of the steel plates, to try to shake the top plates loose and aid with clutching for the shift. It was a little better, but still suffered the in-town dryness issue.

This was part-and-parcel of the whole "chain problem" that Honda suffered with the early 750, because the starts were mostly pretty sharp. It wasn't bad enough that Honda had to invent some sort of new chain (which they ultimately 'bought' along with AMF/Harley/Diamond in 1972), but in the sandcast series they were already starting to deliver the bikes with endless drive chains to reduce the stress-breaks. And, the chain oiler underwent many mods: the one in this engine is the very first version of them all. While there is still one more part a-coming to me from the orient somewhere, I got the rest of the trick parts and will show them below.

First thing: put some oil into the clutch. While I will have to verify with the owner whether he wants to have the (later created) holes in the clutch hub or not, I went ahead and drilled the tiny 0.024" oiling hole in the mainshaft plug out to 7/32" (4.5mm) to put some oil in and at least stop burning up clutch plates. It is obvious this is not the first set of such plates in this engine, and yet the gears and chains indicate there can't be but maybe 5k miles on it, total. The steel plates have a touch of rust on each one, but not enough to rule them out of service if it were my own bike, so they will stay, for now.

Here's a shot of the sandcast's clutch oiling hole next to a K1 mainshaft's (the right one) oiling hole. By the time of the New Factory K1 (around 1/71 builds) they had figured out this much of the clutch: over time they made 4 more important changes that resulted in a silky clutch operation by the K4 (the ones with the dual-sprung-steel plate in the stack).
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 12:14:23 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #178 on: September 02, 2023, 08:24:34 PM »
Getting the correct bearings for this one has been a puzzle, as many of the parts diagrams don't show the right ones. Both of the bearings on the final-drive shaft are grooved-type, with the outer one also being specially flat-ground on both sides so the seal will fit flush to it on the sprocket side and won't overhang the inside of the bearing's saddle, which could promote oil weeps with hot, thin oil. Not that anyone would have noticed that in the sandcasts: the typical sandcast rider could be identified by the black streak up his back left shoulder if he was wearing anything other than black, oily leathers. :D  This led to many other mods, like the extended (still plastic) chainguard and revised parts in the end of the final-drive shaft for the oiler. More on that in a minute...
« Last Edit: September 02, 2023, 08:26:19 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #179 on: September 02, 2023, 08:33:10 PM »
The sandcasts and the earliest K0 engines (and those K0 engines that got recycled into later bikes) had no bearing retainer for the clutch's support bearing, outboard of the primary drive sprocket. These were the only ones made that way. When the retainer groove/ring for the final-drive outboard bearing disappeared, one appeared here instead.

It's almost like the Engineering Manager told his underlings, "You can have no more than 4 bearing retainers for the 750 engines"...  ::)

(But, I think they got their revenge: the late [post3/72] K2 and early [pre-1/73] K3 had 5 of them...). ;)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2023, 08:41:15 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #180 on: September 02, 2023, 08:48:21 PM »
Then the new needle bearings went into the clutch hub.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #181 on: September 02, 2023, 09:04:43 PM »
The clutch outer on the Sandcast has no retainer clip. I've seen the K0 both ways: the last K0 I did was mid-year production and had one, but the previous K0 (very near Sandcast serial number) was like this one, with no clip.

It is important to note: the rounded side of this washer is supposed to go toward the hub (i.e. away from the engine). It was, however, not always assembled that way: I have found them both ways in engines that I thought were factory-assembled. This hasn't caused any troubles I know of, unlike when they get installed backward in the transmission.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #182 on: September 02, 2023, 09:12:17 PM »
Now for the (poor) clutch: the whole stack of clutch plates was glued together by a coating of oily dirt. This shielded the steel plates surprisingly well from the water vapor (Houston humidity), but the muddy mess soaked well into the cork plates. The steel plates all cleaned up with just minor rust pits, will likely work just fine.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #183 on: September 02, 2023, 11:41:19 PM »
Glass bead the steel plates? (As done on modified engines with more power.)

Or only steel wool and elbow grease to remove rust. WD40 helps.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline 69cb750

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #184 on: September 03, 2023, 04:50:23 AM »
Quote
Not that anyone would have noticed that in the sandcasts: the typical sandcast rider could be identified by the black streak up his back left shoulder if he was wearing anything other than black, oily leathers. :D  This led to many other mods, like the extended (still plastic) chainguard and revised parts in the end of the final-drive shaft for the oiler. More on that in a minute...
The early non adjustable chain oiler let to much oil escape.
The adjustable oiler arrived in March 1970 CB750-1026144

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #185 on: September 03, 2023, 08:08:15 AM »
New clutch plates (cork)?
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #186 on: September 03, 2023, 09:54:38 AM »
Quote
Not that anyone would have noticed that in the sandcasts: the typical sandcast rider could be identified by the black streak up his back left shoulder if he was wearing anything other than black, oily leathers. :D  This led to many other mods, like the extended (still plastic) chainguard and revised parts in the end of the final-drive shaft for the oiler. More on that in a minute...
The early non adjustable chain oiler let to much oil escape.
The adjustable oiler arrived in March 1970 CB750-1026144
Yeah: this one was "adjusted" by removing the little oil catch-pan! Then the guts of the output shaft were just removed and the bolt reinstalled, letting crankcase pressures push some oil out thru the side-hole in the output shaft. This sorta worked without drying out the chain entirely, but Honda sternly warned us that they would "void the [90-day] warranty" on the bikes if we did it. So, the customers got the news after the 90 days, and those that had the engine out for things like ruined rockers and cams (because the tiny 0.040" oiling holes in the head blocked up) could request it - after we informed them...

I'm going to at least put the little filter and seal back in.

If you can imagine having this job: some Japanese tech spent his days at a lathe, turning down the threads on the end of this bolt while tapering the entry of the thread well enough that it could still be installed into the final-drive shaft(?). I give that guy a saki for free...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #187 on: September 03, 2023, 11:50:11 AM »
Mark,I like their 'idea' of keeping the chain lubed using that countershaft oiler.
Which brand SAE/weight oil worked best in those K0's back then ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #188 on: September 03, 2023, 12:25:52 PM »
New clutch plates (cork)?

Yep, that's gonna have to happen. I have a set of barely-used ones (like less than 8k miles) I think I'll use here. They are at least genuine Honda parts. :) They came from a K2 engine that was in an abandoned bike that I bought after the 'finder' discovered he would have to pay over $500 plus plate fees if he wanted to search & re-title it. I think I paid $300 for the whole thing, still have a nice frame/seat/wheels/pipes/etc. left from that one. Tank is around here somewhere, too. I have 2 untitled complete-able bikes like that, but Colorado is REAL stingy about getting such things re-titled. For the one on the cover of my book, which had a lost title, I paid over $900 in 2006 monies  for 120 days waiting period (after 5+ years?) to get it retitled - that was before they made it complicated. :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #189 on: September 03, 2023, 12:40:11 PM »
Mark,I like their 'idea' of keeping the chain lubed using that countershaft oiler.
Which brand SAE/weight oil worked best in those K0's back then ?

From the beginning, Honda recommend 20w50 oil, "low detergent", be used in the Four. (So do I...). That never changed, but oils sure have. In 1974 American Honda decided they didn't like the "Jinglish" found in the Owner's Manuals that came under the seats and actually sued Honda Japan to get the right to make "American" manuals - which they promptly screwed up by not understanding what we mechanics had been translating for years. The biggest error was with the oil recommendation: Honda's manuals said, "Use NOT LESS than 10w40 oils in warm weather" (caps mine) and showed a chart depicting 'warm weather' being 60+ degrees F. American Honda turned this into "Use at least 10w40 oils", which is not the same thing. This led to rapid valve guide wear in most of the "F" bikes when this change came out, as Honda also switched just before then (during the K2) from Stellite valve guides to cast-iron types: 10w40 oils burn on the surface of the exhaust guides and vaporize from inside the guide itself at hiway temperatures, leaving them unlubed at 55 MPH.

This same lawsuit created the American-made Honda shop manuals, with similar mistranslations. That move is expressly why today there is much confusion about what the "idle mix adjust" screws do in the carbs. Honda's Jinglish said it like this:
"For richness, turn screw in."
American Honda said it like this:
"Turn the screw inward for richer mix."
Translations:
Jinglish said, "If the mix is too rich, turn the screw inward", which came from the tendency of these screws to back out due to vibration on the many Honda singles out there, thus fouling the sparkplug.
American Honda seemed to imply "If you want richer mix, turn the screw inward." - Dead wrong.
The above is true for all of the SOHC4 bikes, BTW. Just study the carbs and you'll figure it out. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #190 on: September 03, 2023, 01:53:54 PM »
Mark,I like their 'idea' of keeping the chain lubed using that countershaft oiler.
Which brand SAE/weight oil worked best in those K0's back then ?

From the beginning, Honda recommend 20w50 oil, "low detergent", be used in the Four. (So do I...). That never changed, but oils sure have. In 1974 American Honda decided they didn't like the "Jinglish" found in the Owner's Manuals that came under the seats and actually sued Honda Japan to get the right to make "American" manuals - which they promptly screwed up by not understanding what we mechanics had been translating for years. The biggest error was with the oil recommendation: Honda's manuals said, "Use NOT LESS than 10w40 oils in warm weather" (caps mine) and showed a chart depicting 'warm weather' being 60+ degrees F. American Honda turned this into "Use at least 10w40 oils", which is not the same thing. This led to rapid valve guide wear in most of the "F" bikes when this change came out, as Honda also switched just before then (during the K2) from Stellite valve guides to cast-iron types: 10w40 oils burn on the surface of the exhaust guides and vaporize from inside the guide itself at hiway temperatures, leaving them unlubed at 55 MPH.

This same lawsuit created the American-made Honda shop manuals, with similar mistranslations. That move is expressly why today there is much confusion about what the "idle mix adjust" screws do in the carbs. Honda's Jinglish said it like this:
"For richness, turn screw in."
American Honda said it like this:
"Turn the screw inward for richer mix."
Translations:
Jinglish said, "If the mix is too rich, turn the screw inward", which came from the tendency of these screws to back out due to vibration on the many Honda singles out there, thus fouling the sparkplug.
American Honda seemed to imply "If you want richer mix, turn the screw inward." - Dead wrong.
The above is true for all of the SOHC4 bikes, BTW. Just study the carbs and you'll figure it out. ;)

Oh,  ???  Were they kind of saying 10/40 is a standard/recommended oil and will be better for everything especially the top-end ??  I don't clearly understand the intention of the mixed translation and what they actually were recommending..
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #191 on: September 03, 2023, 06:28:21 PM »
Mark,I like their 'idea' of keeping the chain lubed using that countershaft oiler.
Which brand SAE/weight oil worked best in those K0's back then ?

From the beginning, Honda recommend 20w50 oil, "low detergent", be used in the Four. (So do I...). That never changed, but oils sure have. In 1974 American Honda decided they didn't like the "Jinglish" found in the Owner's Manuals that came under the seats and actually sued Honda Japan to get the right to make "American" manuals - which they promptly screwed up by not understanding what we mechanics had been translating for years. The biggest error was with the oil recommendation: Honda's manuals said, "Use NOT LESS than 10w40 oils in warm weather" (caps mine) and showed a chart depicting 'warm weather' being 60+ degrees F. American Honda turned this into "Use at least 10w40 oils", which is not the same thing. This led to rapid valve guide wear in most of the "F" bikes when this change came out, as Honda also switched just before then (during the K2) from Stellite valve guides to cast-iron types: 10w40 oils burn on the surface of the exhaust guides and vaporize from inside the guide itself at hiway temperatures, leaving them unlubed at 55 MPH.

This same lawsuit created the American-made Honda shop manuals, with similar mistranslations. That move is expressly why today there is much confusion about what the "idle mix adjust" screws do in the carbs. Honda's Jinglish said it like this:
"For richness, turn screw in."
American Honda said it like this:
"Turn the screw inward for richer mix."
Translations:
Jinglish said, "If the mix is too rich, turn the screw inward", which came from the tendency of these screws to back out due to vibration on the many Honda singles out there, thus fouling the sparkplug.
American Honda seemed to imply "If you want richer mix, turn the screw inward." - Dead wrong.
The above is true for all of the SOHC4 bikes, BTW. Just study the carbs and you'll figure it out. ;)

Oh,  ???  Were they kind of saying 10/40 is a standard/recommended oil and will be better for everything especially the top-end ??  I don't clearly understand the intention of the mixed translation and what they actually were recommending..

Actually, no...the Americans at American Honda thought they knew better than those of us who had been working on the bikes for decades by then: later it was shown that the person(s) who did this got fired, but the manuals never got changed. They were newcomers to Hondas and buoyed up with big salaries, fueled largely by the 750 and 500/550 success. Typical egotistical Californians of that era, they were. They got the oil recommendations 100% wrong, and the bikes (and their riders) suffered for it: only the 55 MPH speed limit of the time made success of these bikes possible by under-exerting their engines: the 750 was made to cruise at 70+ MPH until the mid-year K4 version, and the 500 merely cooked its seals until they leaked oil, usually by around 1980. That's often how we find them now. The 550K fared a little better because of its new oil pumpers in the tranny shafts, but their HYVO-type primary chains suffered excessive wear from the lighter oils - which is how we now find them, the 350F, and the 400F today after sitting untold years.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #192 on: September 03, 2023, 06:35:03 PM »
The owner wants a fully usable clutch, so here's the mods it takes to make one from a sandcast/early K0/1 version.
First task: identify WHICH early clutch assembly it is: there were several types before the late K2 standardized them.
-The 1st type had a Lifting Ring for the outer plate or two (depending on which way it was installed), that was a free-riding part of the assembly.
-The 2nd type had a thicker rear steel plate with a steel wire that wrapped around the inner hub and poked into a hole to seat it: the wire(s) held the steel plates in place by retaining their teeth into the hub. Most had 2 of these wires, but the 2nd steel plate was normal thickness. There were only 6 cork plates in this version, and it only came in Old Factory bikes. It much resembled the CB160's clutch setup.
- The 3rd type, which came after the sandcast and late in the K0 series, had 6 cork plates and 7 steel plates, with a steel plate riding against the outer spring retainer plate in place of using that top plate as the last one. These, IIRC, came from the New Factory.

This sandcast has the 1st type, with no steel wire nor thicker backplate. Since there are no holes in the hub to retain any steel wires, it came this way originally. It was the first clutch design, the original IN/OUT box version. The twisted shifter arm splines tend to support that idea: it was a bugger to shift in city riding. :(

To improve this, the hub needs to be modified to have oil holes to feed the oil from the (now enlarged like later bikes) mainshaft oil feed hole. The steps are:
1. Make Oil Passages in the inner hub to feed oil from the mainshaft's port: the original Oil Passages are so small that barely a dribble of the tiny amount that got there from the tiny mainshaft hole even made it to the outer (top) clutch plate.
2. Make Oil Feed Holes directly into the clutch plates (like all the later 750s have).
3. Add the Oil Sipes to the inner side of the Clutch Hub to help gather the oil from the new ports and feed it into the plates.
All these things happen by centrifugal force when the engine is sunning.

Here's the original Clutch Parts Diagrams from the old Parts Manuals (1970s era). Notice the odd steel plate with the wire(s) for the clutches that had them, and the Lifter Ring in the pictures: in the Parts Listing shown here (this one was for K2 after March 1972) the numbers for those parts are simply not listed, which indicated they were discontinued - but might show up in an engine if it was recycled in Production from an earlier day into a later bike!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 07:16:42 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #193 on: September 03, 2023, 07:24:58 PM »
So, into this clutch: it is a simple one with no steel back plate and a steel-ring-reinforced spline hub. This reinforcement disappeared in the K2 era, so Honda had over estimated the strength needed here. This was typical of Honda in those days, very cautious about their designs.

The Clutch Outer on this one requires the Lifting Ring.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #194 on: September 03, 2023, 07:39:11 PM »
The original 'slots' that feed oil to the hub in the Sandcast are very narrow and are almost fully blocked by insertion of the Spring Retainer/Clutch Lifter assembly (Sandcast in the top picture). These need to be widened and new lower slots cut at their tops to allow the oil to escape into the clutch housing, like in the K4 version shown below the Sandcast version. The bottom picture here shows how fully blocked the Sandcast's oil slots are when the Lifter is placed into the Hub.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 07:43:12 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #195 on: September 03, 2023, 07:47:55 PM »
I started by widening the oil ports to be like the K4 version, using a Dremel and a Tile Cutter bit. Steady goes it. I'm sorry the second picture doesn't have good contrast Look at the next post following for the finished result, better contrast), but the top of each oil port is lowered after widening the ports to look like (and measure like) those of the K4 hub. This gives the oil an easier escape route below the Spring Retainer/Lifter Plate.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 08:02:47 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online denward17

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #196 on: September 03, 2023, 07:51:55 PM »
Love following your posts.......great work..

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #197 on: September 03, 2023, 08:00:28 PM »
Next came adding the oiling holes thru the inner Hub.
I copied the K4 hub's hole positions. This places 2 sets of them on the tips of the hub's splines and 2 sets of them in the bottom, in quadrature. The important part is to come in at the downstream side of the rotating hub so the oil is flung against the "spoke" supports of the hub to pool the oil near these holes. Drill size is 7/32". Note how the holes must be in-between the witness marks from the steel plates: that's where the cork plates reside.

Then I modified the holes with my signature "sipes" as shown in my book. This gathers yet a bit more oil from the surface of the spinning hub to force it toward the plates.

Finally, don't forget to deburr the holes! The sharp edges will otherwise end up in the clutch plate cork, not good.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 10:13:40 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online HondaMan

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #198 on: September 03, 2023, 08:05:21 PM »
Last (for today), a shot of the difference between the original Sandcast version of this clutch Pressure Plate versus the later production version (from a K4). Note how much less material was used: the sandcast has a much thicker and stronger Pressure Plate.

And, by 3/72 builds of the K2, the Clutch Outer had a welded-on steel reinforcement band instead of the floating Lifting Ring. It didn't need the Lifting Ring anymore!

The last picture here shows the stripped sandcast shifter splines. This clutch wouldn't let go for nuthin', poor rider. :(
Now it should be sweet!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 08:12:11 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline newday777

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Re: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - I hope?
« Reply #199 on: September 04, 2023, 12:35:47 AM »
Interesting.....
I'll have to open the clutch in the K0 spare motor I acquired
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A