Topic: Sandcast Engine #1770 rebuild - it made it!

[HondaMan]

The last [ordered] part is here, woohoo!
It's the phenolic washer to press the felt seal closed (less, or more) inside the final-drive shaft to control the chain oiler.
CMS actually had someone make one (or more) to fill the order.
Since the oiler pan is no longer present, this will just control the (oily) crankcase pressure flow out the shaft, so it will still oil a little bit, enough to call it "present" for the sticklers in Resto-World meets.

[HondaMan]

Today was messy(!). The alternator cover was all welded up, as it appears to have suffered a trip to the ground, while moving.
I think about half (or more) of the750s I have rebuilt have scarred-up alternator covers. Even my own isn't pretty.

I filed, ground, sanded (repeat) until it doesn't look like a pregnant rodent, but I'm not the best at polishing as I haven't much equipment for that. It's presentable, just not real pretty.

[HondaMan]

But, after 3 cans of spray solvent, the alternator's wiring still looks to need some serious help.
That's next...Tubing, more cleaning, new bullet connectors, all needed.

[BenelliSEI]

If it’s not one of the “thin flange” covers (I can’t quite see the front), why not replace it with a newer one? I know some would cringe, but really some parts may have been replaced more than once in the past 50 years…….

P.S. It actually looks darn good.

[BenelliSEI]

But, after 3 cans of spray solvent, the alternator's wiring still looks to need some serious help.
That's next...Tubing, more cleaning, new bullet connectors, all needed.

For $12 Vintagecb750.com does make a pretty nice one. I’ve used a couple and they are well made and finish the job nicely.

[HondaMan]

But, after 3 cans of spray solvent, the alternator's wiring still looks to need some serious help.
That's next...Tubing, more cleaning, new bullet connectors, all needed.

For $12 Vintagecb750.com does make a pretty nice one. I’ve used a couple and they are well made and finish the job nicely.

I've already got that half in place: it goes from the engine up to the frame. The stuff I need now goes the other direction from that harness. Not to worry, though, I have stuff like the PVC (upgraded) tubing and all those little connectors: it's just still very greasy and the wire jackets are all caked, will take much of tomorrow to clean them off, I think.

[BenelliSEI]

But, after 3 cans of spray solvent, the alternator's wiring still looks to need some serious help.
That's next...Tubing, more cleaning, new bullet connectors, all needed.

For $12 Vintagecb750.com does make a pretty nice one. I’ve used a couple and they are well made and finish the job nicely.

I've already got that half in place: it goes from the engine up to the frame. The stuff I need now goes the other direction from that harness. Not to worry, though, I have stuff like the PVC (upgraded) tubing and all those little connectors: it's just still very greasy and the wire jackets are all caked, will take much of tomorrow to clean them off, I think.

It always stuns me how long some of the most menial tasks can take. A few months ago, I pulled the centre stand off my K1 (it was looking very scruffy). By the time I got it really clean, polished the centre pivot pipe, crawled under and cleaned and straightened the frame clamps, drilled the stand and added a grease nipple, found some decent hardware, blew on a coat of paint, and finally put it back together, i’d wasted almost an entire day…..

Time well spent.

[RAFster122s]

Restoring a bike or car can take serious investment of time and elbow grease when properly done. Unlike the lipstick and paint over it crowd of bike flippers out there...
People who take the time to properly clean something are growing fewer and fewer. Amazing how good paint and chrome that has been neglected can get polished up nicely again if the dirt is not caustic to the paint or chrome.
The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

[HondaMan]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

[Kelly E]

Yep, chrome, paint, solvents and and anything automotive or motorcycle is evil. Of course the glorified golf carts the eco warriors drive around in are okay, they just chose to ignore the toxic batteries that power them.

[HondaMan]

If it’s not one of the “thin flange” covers (I can’t quite see the front), why not replace it with a newer one? I know some would cringe, but really some parts may have been replaced more than once in the past 50 years…….

P.S. It actually looks darn good.

It's definitely an early one, and heavy as compared the the new ones being sold now - it is almost twice as thick at the gasket surfaces as the brand-new one I used about 2 years ago. These early ones are prone to absorbing oil, which gives them a dark appearance after the years (and dirty oil) have had their way with them. Like this one, even the gasket surface is a bit porous, so if you get the cover you want to use, it usually needs some thin Hondabond to help keep things dry despite there being little oil inside. Honda added the "MADE IN JAPAN" smilin' logo to the casting about when the New Factory opened (around 2/71, some say 11/70) while K1 bikes were built - they all got this by about 10/71 or later, but for a while it was easier to tell the New and Old Factory products apart by this cover.

I freehanded in the lower 1/3 or so of the 'groove' in the circle that surrounds the logo with a tiny abrasive cutter wheel (a worn-out one from cutting steel rods), so it isn't real 'clean' when seen up close. The owner seems to favor a replacement cover, so I'm going to look around to see what's out there. I don't want to use one from a post-K1 era engine as the "MADE IN JAPAN" logo and the more shiny surface sheen won't be very authentic for a sandcast. There's considerable status in having one of these bikes running!

[BenelliSEI]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

Good chrome around here is only done in a few shops. They are so tightly legislated and monitored that it costs a fortune. I recently met a guy that restored a ‘50’s Chevy to absolute perfection. He built a large crate that held both bumpers and every piece of chrome from the car. Shipped it to a shop in MEXICO! They did an excellent job and he tells me even with shipping, taxes and duties paid it was 1/2 of any other option. Wow.

[HondaMan]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

Good chrome around here is only done in a few shops. They are so tightly legislated and monitored that it costs a fortune. I recently met a guy that restored a ‘50’s Chevy to absolute perfection. He built a large crate that held both bumpers and every piece of chrome from the car. Shipped it to a shop in MEXICO! They did an excellent job and he tells me even with shipping, taxes and duties paid it was 1/2 of any other option. Wow.

Hmm...did he mention the shop's name?

[grcamna2]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

Good chrome around here is only done in a few shops. They are so tightly legislated and monitored that it costs a fortune. I recently met a guy that restored a ‘50’s Chevy to absolute perfection. He built a large crate that held both bumpers and every piece of chrome from the car. Shipped it to a shop in MEXICO! They did an excellent job and he tells me even with shipping, taxes and duties paid it was 1/2 of any other option. Wow.

 

[BenelliSEI]

I don’t see him often, but will try and find the shop name and address.

[Stev-o]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

Good chrome around here is only done in a few shops.

I recently had '63 Corvette bumpers plated for a friend doing a restoration, took two weeks and was $350, they came out beautiful.  There is only 1 chrome shop here in Austin, family run since the 1960. A few years back, they re-chromed some Kawasaki mufflers for me which is all but unheard of these days.

https://centexplating.com/

[HondaMan]

The chrome today seems to not be as thick or maybe it is the copper or other layers are just thinner...

I talked with a chromer a few years ago about this, as I saw it, too. It seems that most of the useful chemicals involved in good chroming have been outlawed nearly everywhere.

Never mind that they CAME from this planet: somehow the act of EMPLOYING them makes them toxic?
I call BS...

Good chrome around here is only done in a few shops.

I recently had '63 Corvette bumpers plated for a friend doing a restoration, took two weeks and was $350, they came out beautiful.  There is only 1 chrome shop here in Austin, family run since the 1960. A few years back, they re-chromed some Kawasaki mufflers for me which is all but unheard of these days.

https://centexplating.com/

I used to get pipes and parts rechromed by Advanced Custom Chrome in PA (their motto: "It must look like chrome before it gets chromed") and I think the chrome was thicker than the steel when I got them back. But, they got in hock with the EPA over their use of certain chemicals, which worked with used exhaust pipes, and they had to quit chroming the used ones.

[HondaMan]

Next: wiring the alternator back into the new sub-harness.
I had 2 of these aftermarket engine wiring harnesses, and both of them had the silicone connector covers on the phase windings backward. When they do that, the silicone can't seal: I also change the old vinyl insulators on the phase sockets (and if burned, the plugs, too - these are OK) and shorten them about 1/8" to make a 100% seal around these joints.

The pictures here show removing the backward insulators and reversing them, then spreading the new female plug's cover(s) to get them on, and then one shows the final result, a water- and oil-resistant sealed plug set.

It was pointed out to me (with some internet pix, which I trust as much as Washington, DC) that some sandcasts and K0 bikes have the "MADE IN JAPAN" on their alternator cover. Since I wasn't at Honda in those days, assembling the engines, I didn't see all of them and know for dead sure when the logo appeared on the alternator covers, I remember well when it wasn't there. So, if anyone has a more accurate portrayal or record (or explanation?) showing the logo, I'd love to see it so I can make this one as correct as possible. 

[MauiK3]

Sooooo much detail to take into consideration!
Looks great.
I had some chrome done at a shop in.....of all places....Southern California. It was expensive but great work. I guess some shops have figured it out, as long as the customer can handle the cost.

[HondaMan]

Just When I thought I was done...
The kickshaft binds against the clutch cover. This was an issue with the sandcast and thru the k1 series engines, and it happened early in the K7 series also.
What causes it is: the crankcases were ground slightly too far inward on this clutch cover surface, usually (in the K0/1) because '#$%*s' (i.e., tiny air pockets) would show up in the gasket surface around the clutch-side sealing surface, which would leak oil. Honda was frantic that this bike should not leak oil like the British bikes did, and sometimes the machinists got a little overzealous (IMHO) to try to prevent it. They would just grind the surface a tad more to 'clean it up', but the shoulder of the kickshaft, which rides against the clutch cover, should then be correspondingly ground back to provide enough clearance to let it swing. Someone didn't do this second step in this one. Since Honda's OEM gaskets were slightly thicker than the modern Vesrah versions I use, the kickshaft didn't stick enough to be a problem at the factory: the first time someone (before me) changed the clutch plates, it DID become an issue, and the case markings showed the interference. The electric starter saved the day for using the bike, but the kickshaft must be pulled back up, once kicked down. This was the "hand built" sort of treatment the sandcast engines received.

I should note that it isn't just this clutch cover that got this extra-grind treatment: sometimes the alternator and tranny covers' surfaces got it, too. The tranny cover side usually has enough clearance behind the shifter shaft's face to tolerate it, but I've had to relieve the face for that shaft into the crankcase before (long time ago) when the tranny cover of an engine needed replacement and the new one wasn't relieved like the old one, same situation. The shifter would stick in the shifted position until the engine got fully warmed up, then it would move OK. That one took a long time to figure out, too!

After I discovered this one's grief, I Dykem'd the surface of the case where the shiny spots are (the kickshaft stop surface is VERY shiny from use) and put it all together (for the 10th time) to find the interference: it is a full arc on the top half of the hole. This matches with the shaft sitting in the slightly downward angle that they all do. I need to find a way to relieve the inside of the clutch cover about 0.002" in this area: if I still had the bottom end apart I could stick the kickshaft in the lathe and trim off the 0.002" I need from the flared stop on the inner end of the shaft, but I'm not tearing it all back down for that(!).

Oh, to have a mill... 

[PeWe]

Good info, Mark!

[RAFster122s]

Well, since you have the cover off, you could relieve the cover by the amount you wanted…it is a bandaid fix that disappears if you change the cover down the road…

[HondaMan]

OK, made the kickshaft happy!
Here are the steps: I double-sided taped some 220 grit emery paper to the back of a socket that is slightly larger than the diameter of the kickshaft's bearing stop, applied some protective tape to my super-extension (harbor Freight junk, but free) to center it in the shaft's hole and applied a hundred (maybe two?) turns to the back of the cover's bearing site. It needed about 0.002" so I gave it about twice that much. That made the kickshaft almost free enough to return home, but then it polished the top inside of the hole and the bottom-outside of the hole, indicating the shaft's holes in the lower engine case are also drilled at a slight downward angle. Not surprising: this was before Honda made the big round hole on the bottom of the K1-onward cases that is the reference fixture for all boring into the cases by their NC machines. It needed 0.002" more on the top inside and 0.001" more on the outside to make it fully free like a regular kickshaft. Now it's happy.

But, made me unhappy...as I put the screws into the clutch cover after all was done and fitted, discovered the top front hole is stripped...

That's for tomorrow...

[RAFster122s]

One step forward one step back is this motor’s story… hope you are charging appropriately for all the headaches this poor motor has and the owner appreciates this was no small feat to restore.  Amazing how many hands over time it takes to get a motor in this sad state…or was it the handiwork of a couple of village idiots that need flogged in public?

[HondaMan]

One step forward one step back is this motor’s story… hope you are charging appropriately for all the headaches this poor motor has and the owner appreciates this was no small feat to restore.  Amazing how many hands over time it takes to get a motor in this sad state…or was it the handiwork of a couple of village idiots that need flogged in public?

It has the earmarks of both: the top-end parts (rockers, shafts, bearings) were obviously replaced by a knowledgeable person around the mid-1980s (judging from the type of rocker shafts that were used) but the bottom-end parts (and clutch) were another story. It's just sad that the whole thing was torn down to be put into a shed for 30+ years where nature had its way with it. There wasn't much wear on it: I would estimate it has maybe 5k miles on it, tops.