Author Topic: Fresh Rebuild - What to do and double check before cranking for the first time?  (Read 1684 times)

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Offline Ellz10

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Using a car battery to help supplement your bike battery will allow you to crank without voltage dropping too much. Just jumper cable the battery to the bike battery…just like jump starting a bike, never with a running vehicle.

Make sure your battery is fully charged…even if new.

How does it work if I have a Lithium-Ion battery? Can I just use any ole car battery and connect it to the Lithium-Ion battery and go like that or is there going to be compatibility issues due to the lithium nature?
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Offline Ellz10

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You don't need fans for a test start and a few minutes running. For carb balancing, with the engine running quite a while, you do want a fan but a hurricane wind is unnecessary. The engine doesn't melt in slow traffic after all.
Cranking with plugs removed doesn't load the starter much... but starter motors are designed for very low duty cycles - so don't crank it for minutes at a time endlessly just because you jumped to a a big battery that can power such foolishness. You should get oil pressure (via a gauge or by watching for oil to the valvegear) in less than a minute of cranking. Once you do see pressure, meaning the galleries and filter are full, it should come up again almost immediately on start.
Realistically if you used assembly lube on the bottom end and cam lobes/bearings... just starting it and keeping revs way down until you have oil pressure won't do any damage.

+1

Well I got back from the auto parts store and it shows its cranking at 240 amps which is what is stated on the battery. I'm going to check the voltage with the multimeter and see what that says tonight.

If the battery is good, then I have absolutely no idea what could be wrong.

I REALLY hope I didn't fry the m.Unit, they're so expensive.
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Offline Ellz10

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So I just got home and had the opportunity to do some troubleshooting. I removed the m.Unit and tested it independently and it is not fried or malfunctioning THANK GOD. I also tested the battery for voltage and its sitting at mid 13.

So I went ahead and plugged everything back in and connected the battery.

No power to the m.Unit, just as before. Hm. Then it hit me and I thought to check the 40a inline fuse that runs from Battery POS to the Starter Solenoid. Fuse was blown. So I checked the 40a inline fuse that runs from the Starter Solenoid to the m.Unit and that one was still intact.

Placed an order a little bit ago for a few of the 40a inline fuses that go in the Motogadget cable that blew. Once I get them I'm going to install a new one then take a circuit tester to see what happened, I'm guessing I have a bad ground somewhere.

Could a bad ground have caused the fuse to blow and cause all this headache?
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Offline dave500

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the starter motor itself shouldnt be running via a fuse,itll be pulling about 150 amps!the starter is only live via its relay or solenoid with no fuse,40 amp seems like a heavy fuse for these old bikes?if you wired the bike go over your install.

Offline Ellz10

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the starter motor itself shouldnt be running via a fuse,itll be pulling about 150 amps!the starter is only live via its relay or solenoid with no fuse,40 amp seems like a heavy fuse for these old bikes?if you wired the bike go over your install.

All the videos i watched of people installing the m.unit and custom wiring and even several people in the electrics part of the forum said there's should be that 40a fuse there.

In the photo I attached it shows the battery positive cable going to the solenoid at the top arrow, the cable from the starter motor to the solenoid on the bottom arrow, and the long line follows the r0a inline fuse that goes from solenoid to the m.unit - interestingly enough is that the 40a inline fuse there didn't blow, but the 40a fuse going from the solenoid to battery positive did blow.


***Update***

Cal was able to tell me what I did wrong - I never should have had a 4pa inline fuse going from Battery positive to the solenoid. Thanks all for input and consideration!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 09:28:51 AM by Ellz10 »
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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The original fuse was 15 amps. Surely your predetermined logic controlled relay doesn’t require much more than an amp.
What wire on the 750 could withstand 40amps other that the starter wire ?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Dave 500 is correct. Go look at your car or truck..

Most automotive batteries can put out 850 amps for a short period.

Think about a dc welder @ 40 volts dc  using only 68-78 amps to melt an 1/8 welding rod and the base metal and ohms law.

Futher considering all electric motors,  including starters motors have locked  rotor/armature amp draw, full load current draw, and no load current ratings. .All starters at rest will have a huge current inrush to the brushes until they get spinning up to speed. The davenports invented it and Faraday and Tesla explained how it all works.  Similar to a ac motor.
Then price a 1000amp 12volt fuse for your car and check the maximum current draw of a 1/0 or 2/0 copper battery cable amp rating.

Then what Dave wrote will make sense..

If they’re recommending a fuse in the starter circuit, have your 836 cranking current draw measured and install a time delay (slo blow) or oversized the fuse for the inrush current.. time delay would be better in case you have to start it hot when it’s being ornery.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2023, 04:41:20 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Have you figured out where the clicking ifs coming from.? M unit or solenoid?

I read the m blue unit has a proprietary output relay for the stater solenoid (probably a “dry”relay output rated for several amps) if may have some ssr outputs as well for other and assignable outputs as well that can be used within the predetermined software. Or they all could be relay outputs and make their own music with the flashers on.

Can you tell what’s clicking, solenoid or m unit’s outputs ? Before it shuts down..
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Offline Ellz10

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Have you figured out where the clicking ifs coming from.? M unit or solenoid?

I read the m blue unit has a proprietary output relay for the stater solenoid (probably a “dry”relay output rated for several amps) if may have some ssr outputs as well for other and assignable outputs as well that can be used within the predetermined software. Or they all could be relay outputs and make their own music with the flashers on.

Can you tell what’s clicking, solenoid or m unit’s outputs ? Before it shuts down..

So as I mentioned above I did find out what I had wrong at first - I had the 40a inline fuse going from Battery POS to Starter Solenoid and I had to switch going from battery POS to m.unit.

However the clicking/clacking still remains when I press the start button. And it is 100% coming from the m.unit - if I put my finger on the m.unit I can feel something switching or clicking in there. There's no other noise coming from anywhere.

I did take the liberty of creating a thread in the electronics part of the forum and I'll be continuing the diagnostic process there. Here's the link:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,192558.0.html
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Offline calj737

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Go check that electronics thread so you can fix your bike.
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Go check that electronics thread so you can fix your bike.

Dave 500 said the same in only one sentence.

It reads the unit is still shutting itself down in a protection mode…🤔
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Offline Stev-o

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Waiting for him to remove the fuse so he can get this bike started!
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Offline Ellz10

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Found out my issue was that I didn't have 2 cables running from battery POS - one (40a inline fuse) running to m.Unit & and the other running to starter solenoid - I only had the one cable running from battery POS.

I'm in the process of correcting my mistake right now.

Will update when finished.
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Waiting for him to remove the fuse so he can get this bike started!

I think his 40amp fuse was in the right place. Just the missing a cable. He did post the schematic in the m unit thread..
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Offline Ellz10

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Alrighty!! Well I got everything dialed in tonight and everything is where it should be.

I pressed start and she cranks so that's the good news!

The bad news is that I'm not getting any oil pressure 😫

My gauge doesn't move AT ALL, not even a sliver.

So tomorrow I'll probably remove the gauge to see into the galley there and see if any oil is coming up.

If I can't get any oil pressure, should I drop the oil pump AGAIN and prime it again? I just did it early last week.

I've obviously read other threads with suggestions such as put the bike on the kickstand and pour oil into the galley. Do I put the cover back on after I pour the oil in? I also read to remove the oil filter cover and crank to see if any oil is coming out there.

Friendly reminder that I have The Sump Thing, wet sump conversion kit installed and I just primed it last week.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 07:00:32 AM by Ellz10 »
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Have you deleted your kickstarter or kickstarter gear?
The kickstarter gear runs the oil pump. You won’t be the first to do without it in the quest to go faster..
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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You could fabricate a low speed oil pump drive for a 1/2 drill.
All thread and a couple of bolts for the dog drive to turn the gear.

Turn it in the right direction submerged in a pan of oil. You’ll see when it starts pumping…
It’s a two section pump. It should have two discharges. I don’t know how the scavenge side of the pump works with your “Sumpthing” or whether you’ve modified the pump for its use..?

You can see the scavenge pump section #2 behind the “ghost out” gear in the last photo.
The intake ports from the tank and screen are visible as the two separate discharge ports are visible for each section.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 02:33:14 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline Ellz10

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Have you deleted your kickstarter or kickstarter gear?
The kickstarter gear runs the oil pump. You won’t be the first to do without it in the quest to go faster..

I didn't remove the kickstarter gear, but I have a cover on the kickstarter spline. But it's quick and easy to remove and throw the kickstarter lever on.

You think It's possible I would get oil pressure from using the kickstarter when I couldn't get any from using the electric starter motor..?? If so, I'm going to throw it on right now and try kicking it over.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 03:19:35 PM by Ellz10 »
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Have you deleted your kickstarter or kickstarter gear?
The kickstarter gear runs the oil pump. You won’t be the first to do without it in the quest to go faster..

I didn't remove the kickstarter gear, but I have a cover on the kickstarter spline. But it's quick and easy to remove and throw the kickstarter lever on.

You think It's possible I would get oil pressure from using the kickstarter when I couldn't get any from using the electric starter motor..?? If so, I'm going to throw it on right now and try kicking it over.

You only need the gear and shaft to turn the pump, it’s driven by the gear on the clutch. You won’t be able to kick it as fast as the starter can spin it without plugs. You can follow the 5-10 second starter runs to get oil pressure. At some point you’ll have to determine whether the oil pump will pump. It’ll be easier to make that determination with the pump in a pan of oil than on the bike.

Have you tried it without the gauge installed like you earlier mentioned, to see if oil come squirting out. Some have posted they do the same with the oil filter. I’ve never installed an oil pump in anything without priming first, usually by a drill. And then with a pressure tank while 1st starting it so I’m not cranking only relying on the pre assembly lube to stay on the rods and mains.

« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 04:05:16 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline Ellz10

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Have you deleted your kickstarter or kickstarter gear?
The kickstarter gear runs the oil pump. You won’t be the first to do without it in the quest to go faster..

I didn't remove the kickstarter gear, but I have a cover on the kickstarter spline. But it's quick and easy to remove and throw the kickstarter lever on.

You think It's possible I would get oil pressure from using the kickstarter when I couldn't get any from using the electric starter motor..?? If so, I'm going to throw it on right now and try kicking it over.

You only need the gear and shaft to turn the pump, it’s driven by the gear on the clutch. You won’t be able to kick it as fast as the starter can spin it without plugs. You can follow the 5-10 second starter runs to get oil pressure. At some point you’ll have to determine whether the oil pump will pump. It’ll be easier to make that determination with the pump in a pan of oil than on the bike.

Have you tried it without the gauge installed like you earlier mentioned, to see if oil come squirting out. Some have posted they do the same with the oil filter. I’ve never installed an oil pump in anything without priming first, usually by a drill. And then with a pressure tank while 1st starting it so I’m not cranking only relying on the pre assembly lube to stay on the rods and mains.

I've already primed this oil pump twice now in the past 2 weeks and still no pressure. I pour oil in the galley where the gauge mounts then put the gauge back on and still no pressure. I'll try cranking with that cover off, but my guess is that it won't be any different.

I'm at a loss here.
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Offline grcamna2

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I've never rebuilt a 750 but I remember reading here that some folks even removed the pump to prime it directly,then re-installed it.
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Offline Ellz10

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I've never rebuilt a 750 but I remember reading here that some folks even removed the pump to prime it directly,then re-installed it.

I have, twice within the past 2 weeks. I can't keep affording to buy 2 new gaskets every time I disassemble it. It's almost $55 for the 2 gaskets each time.
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Offline grcamna2

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I've never rebuilt a 750 but I remember reading here that some folks even removed the pump to prime it directly,then re-installed it.

I have, twice within the past 2 weeks. I can't keep affording to buy 2 new gaskets every time I disassemble it. It's almost $55 for the 2 gaskets each time.

That's good  ;) is there another way to prime it successfully w/o removing it ?
I don't know what I'm talking about but possibly a narrow hose w/ a large syringe/turkey baster full of engine oil squeezed down into the oil galley ?  ::)   The thin hose may help to allow air to escape better than a full size fuel hose?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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I've never rebuilt a 750 but I remember reading here that some folks even removed the pump to prime it directly,then re-installed it.

I have, twice within the past 2 weeks. I can't keep affording to buy 2 new gaskets every time I disassemble it. It's almost $55 for the 2 gaskets each time.

Don’t give up. Review the picture of the oil pump and oil flow. Make sure you understand where the two sections intake oil and where they discharge it. Build you a quick dog drive. Similar to a drill operated paint stirrer. Only the bolts you use for the pins in your dog drive will have to line up with two of the holes in your oil pump gear. Picture an all thread with a flat strap double nutted to one end. In that flat strap drill two holes equal distance from the center all thread hole. These holes will have to line up with two holes 180* across from each other on the oil pump gear.  Put a long enough bolt in each hole that the ends of the bolt’s  threads will engage your oil pump gear. You could put rubber tubes over the threads so you won’t mark up your gear. It doesn’t have to be perfect, just something the drill can spin the pump submerged in a pan of oil. It will prime quickly not having to push all the trapped air through the stopper valve then through the tight engine clearances. When you see two geysers shooting up from the surface of the oil in the pan, then you’re ready for a new gasket not before.

Before removing it I would still try cranking with out the gauge installed and see if oil shoots out. You could do the same with your oil filter off. Sometimes this may act like a manual grease gun you just changed grease tubes in. It’ll prime to the atmosphere but not hooked to the grease zerk with any back pressure on it. But we don’t know whether the stopper valve is used in “Sumpthing”?

You won’t be able to prime it through the oil gauge hole by squirting oil in it. This is the discharge side of the pressure section of the pump.

With a pressure bleeder maybe but I’ve never tried it and don’t know if it would damage the stopper valve.  if yours still has one. I don’t know if you were required to modify that for your Sumpthing. I don’t see where the stopper would have a function because there is no tank on yours  to worry about draining oil back into the dry sump. Because it’s a wet sump now..🤔

Is your oil gauge old school mechanical ? or part of the m unit.?

Below is a picture of the intake and the discharge ports for the pressure section. (Oil pressure) Observe the arrows.
Under the screen is the intake port for the scavenge section of the oil pump. This Scavenge section of the pump was used to return all pressurized oil drained back from the engine bearings, camshaft, sling oil, ect back to the oil tank. The scavenge section is always trying to keep the sump dry..hence dry sump. The pressure section originally was supplied oil from the oil tank with a little bit of head pressure. It didn’t have to suck initially the oil was there trying to push its way through the pressure section. That’s what the stopper valve prevents when engine is off. (Head pressure is a term that means the pressure created by the vertical height of the liquid) (A Water tower is a good example of head pressure) (everyone that’s swam to the bottom of a swimming pool has experienced head pressure with their ear drums.) Any way the pressure section provides the 56.9 psig @ 4000 @ 176*f of pressurized oil to all the critical components. Then it gravity drains back to the sump where the scavenge pump returns the majority of it to the tank and supplies some of the same aerated oil to the transmission etc and then it starts all over again..at the pressure section………

« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 08:55:47 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Did you prime pump by submerging it in a box with motor oil, just big and deep enough to cover it completely in oil?

Then rotate the sprocket so you can feel underpressure from any of the 2 holes for stock oil hoses. Continue to rotate until finger reallly will be sucked by the hole.
Rotate in other direction while cover the other hole by your finger. Alternate rotations will help to get air out.

I had to unscrew the plug for oil relief valve to let air out.
When all air is out the finger will be sucked as a vacuum cleaner can.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 08:16:46 PM by PeWe »
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CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
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CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
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