Author Topic: What are all the cool kids using for electronic ignition these days? '70 CB750K  (Read 1857 times)

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Offline greenjeans

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I'm more of a points guys, but I have a 1970 CB750 that wants electronic ignition.   Not really a fan of Dana - had 2 fail in the last 15 years.   Any new, reliable options out there?
Yep, I'm the kid that figured out how to put things back together...eventually.

Offline Scootch

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I installed Mark's electronic ignition where you keep the points but have the advantage of the electronics doing the switching. Sort of the best of both worlds...
But I probably don't count bcz I've always been a nerd and never one of the beautiful people.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2023, 03:14:02 PM by Scootch »


Offline rocket johnny

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+1  for hondamans elect ignition ,, easy to install ,  works great ,,   if it takes a crap , unplug it and keep going ,,  no worries



Offline 70CB750

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I use Pamco without problems.  Put 25 000 miles on it on 1970 CB750 and not sure how many on Red.  Two units, good experience with both. 
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Offline dave500

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ive run the boyer units trouble free on a few bikes,its one of those things?ive heard of plenty of dyna failures but how much is installer error?some guys cant even get a headlight to work and at the same time install electronic ignition etc and its all the products fault?i never chime in on electricals because i HAVE to see it first hand.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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I installed Mark's electronic ignition where you keep the points but have the advantage of the electronics doing the switching. Sort of the best of both worlds...
But I probably don't count bcz I've always been a nerd and never one of the beautiful people.

😂🤣😂

Just as long as you still believe you’re the exception like the beautiful people….
Age Quod Agis

Offline dave500

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millions and millions and i think millions of cars and bikes all use electronic ignitions and have done for years?you dont see heaps of cars all scattered around road side broken down?

Offline Deltarider

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Over 20 years ago, I decided to make my own, as the market did not provide a system I would feel comfortable with in my journeys to far away countries, where, in the event of a failure, I would not have a back up. Mine is just an impudent copycat of the well known Velleman K2543 kit (X2). In this setup the breakerpoints switch the control current, reduced in amps to just enough to stay clean. My breakerpoints have done som 60.000 km now. The power switching is taken over by a socalled Darlington transistor, designed back then, especially for this purpose, by Texas Instruments. It can switch up to 500 Hz/s! In our two coil set up, switching at 10.000 rpm is only a 167 Hz, so lots of reserve.
For a good understanding, read the following.
The stock Kettering ignition as designed by Honda is more than adequate to give the energy needed at the sparkplugs electrodes at all speeds. Realise that all Mike Hailwood's victories were on bikes with breakerpoints. EI's in general may give some improvement at starts and in low and very high rpms. Do not expect a gain in midrange however. The spark is only needed to ignite just that little bit of mixture around the plug's electrodes. From there the travelling flame front will do the rest of the combustion. Imagining this process in slow motion, will help you understand. Some folks proudly claim they have a spark 'of a welding torch' and even widen the sparkplugs gap. They only demonstrate their ignorance. The only result will be a much quicker eroding of the sparkplug's electrodes.
Typical spark duration of my kit is 2000 μs (2 ms). In tests it performed even better. The rise time of the Velleman is pretty short with only 25 μs (see graph). All in all, lots of reserve.
My kit is stored high and dry where there is no risk of vibrations, high temperatures or water ingress. Maintenance is limited to check the cam is still lubed, say every 6000km. At the start of every season, it is my habit to do a quick test to check if the dwell angle is still constant at all rpms.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 06:22:13 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline willbird

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Over 20 years ago, I decided to make my own, as the market did not provide a system I would feel comfortable with in my journeys to far away countries, where, in the event of a failure, I would not have a back up. Mine is just an impudent copycat of the well known Velleman K2543 kit (X2). In this setup the breakerpoints switch the control current, reduced in amps to just enough to stay clean. My breakerpoints have done som 60.000 km now. The power switching is taken over by a socalled Darlington transistor, designed back then, especially for this purpose, by Texas Instruments. It can switch up to 500 Hz/s! In our two coil set up, switching at 10.000 rpm is only a 167 Hz, so lots of reserve.
For a good understanding, read the following.
The stock Kettering ignition as designed by Honda is more than adequate to give the energy needed at the sparkplugs electrodes at all speeds. Realise that all Mike Hailwood's victories were on bikes with breakerpoints. EI's in general may give some improvement at starts and in low and very high rpms. Do not expect a gain in midrange however. The spark is only needed to ignite just that little bit of mixture around the plug's electrodes. From there the travelling flame front will do the rest of the combustion. Imagining this process in slow motion, will help you understand. Some folks proudly claim they have a spark 'of a welding torch' and even widen the sparkplugs gap. They only demonstrate their ignorance. The only result will be a much quicker eroding of the sparkplug's electrodes.
Typical spark duration of my kit is 2000 μs (2 ms). In tests it performed even better. The rise time of the Velleman is pretty short with only 25 μs (see graph). All in all, lots of reserve.
My kit is stored high and dry where there is no risk of vibrations, high temperatures or water ingress. Maintenance is limited to check the cam is still lubed, say every 6000km. At the start of every season, it is my habit to do a quick test to check if the dwell angle is still constant at all rpms.

Some of the areas where I work are explosive atmospheres, or the potential is there anyway. We use a type of isolator for dry contacts that uses a protocol called NAMUR. Pretty interesting to dig into. Breaker points would last forever using that type of operation.

Quote
NAMUR abbreviation stands for the German term "Normenarbeitsgemeinschaft für Meß- und
Regelungstechnik in der Chemischen Industrie" which translates to "Association for Standardization of
Measurement and Control Engineering in the Chemical Industry"

This document explains it to a level deeper than I can grasp at present, I just get the basics of it ;-).

https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/tiduel4/tiduel4.pdf?ts=1683273677623&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F#:~:text=2.4.3-,NAMUR%20Digital%20Input,sensor%20to%20detect%20its%20state.


« Last Edit: May 05, 2023, 07:06:52 AM by willbird »

Offline PeWe

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I ordered 2 "Dyna-S" cheap from eBay USA.
Have not tested any of them yet.  Look exact as the original except for labels.

I also ordered Dyna style 5 ohm coils from China very cheap.

Both my CB750 have original Dyna-S.  One with Dyna 5 ohm coils, the other with new stock Honda coils.

It was the earlier type of  Dyna-S that had issues according to threads on this forum I have read.

I have a 3rd CB750 to build so 1 ignition will be used.
Good to have a spare.

Really simple to set a Dyna-S again after an engine job.
I marked plate and case with a marker pen before engine job lifting head etc and new cam timing.
Ignition back on with pen marks as it sat.
A quick check with timing light showed spot on.

Points took much longer time making both points eqaual with dwell meter.

Do not forget to cut advancer springs, important step to make engine to run good from idle and up.
My K6 makes good power with that setup.

For first time, set the rotor correct, plate in middle position. 12v feed and blue, yellow wires connected to main harness.
Start engine, adjust to correct position with timing lamp.
Make sure to strap wires away from the rotating rotor and nut.

Dyna instruction is like a fault tracing guide.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline C317414

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ive run the boyer units trouble free on a few bikes,its one of those things?ive heard of plenty of dyna failures but how much is installer error?some guys cant even get a headlight to work and at the same time install electronic ignition etc and its all the products fault?i never chime in on electricals because i HAVE to see it first hand.

I second the use of Boyer Ignitions.  I installed and sold many of them on British bikes, when I worked at a shop, and I've never seen one fail.  My personal Norton Commando has had one installed since the late 70s.  The nice thing about a Boyer ignition is that it eliminates the mechanical advance. 

Offline rotortiller

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Lots of good devices out there. My suggestion is to buy direct from Asia and avoid a mark-up and re-label. As soon as you get a couple of useless parasitic middle men in there things quickly go south price wise. Look for something priced right with a historical background, go for full pointless electronic. Some products actually discard the mechanical advance unit for electronic. Pick your poison by budget and functional needs is the best advice I have. Avoid nut swinger advice at all costs lol!

Offline willbird

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I saw post in another thread here where somebody was using a 90's GSXR 750 ignition. The rotor dropped right on and he had to figure out how to fasten the pickup to the breaker plate. It had built in 22 degree advance so no mechanical spark advance needed. I googled the parts a bit but did not get far.

Offline C317414

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Lots of good devices out there. My suggestion is to buy direct from Asia and avoid a mark-up and re-label. As soon as you get a couple of useless parasitic middle men in there things quickly go south price wise. Look for something priced right with a historical background, go for full pointless electronic. Some products actually discard the mechanical advance unit for electronic. Pick your poison by budget and functional needs is the best advice I have. Avoid nut swinger advice at all costs lol!

This will not work with Boyer Bransden ignition.  They are made in the UK.

Offline gunr

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I'm in the same boat. I have ordered a new Dyna for my 77.
Backstory is this was my cousin's bike that i now own.  I put a Dyna in it for him about eight years ago, give or take a year.
The bike wasn't running great so I pulled the electronic system out and put a points plate back in. It ran better but seems to have a slower power curve, but I understand it's set up different than my 73.
These were old points that I just cleaned up. Today I put a new set of points from Tiawan that seemed well built but the timing won't come into range. 
I can't retard the timing as I've run out of adjustment in the plate slots.
This makes me wonder if my advance springs are weak.
PeWe mentions clipping the springs and I may try that.  How many coils have you cut off PeWe?
I question whether clipping and bending the spring won't lead to it breaking during a ride.
I also went to Yamiya's site and found replacement springs...Great, give me six and I'll have spares for my brothers.
I get to where I pay and it says 26,000 Yen.  Well that's 200 bucks in round numbers!   I asked the if I ordered six cases of springs but they haven't answered yet. 

Offline Tracksnblades1

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I'm in the same boat. I have ordered a new Dyna for my 77.
Backstory is this was my cousin's bike that i now own.  I put a Dyna in it for him about eight years ago, give or take a year.
The bike wasn't running great so I pulled the electronic system out and put a points plate back in. It ran better but seems to have a slower power curve, but I understand it's set up different than my 73.
These were old points that I just cleaned up. Today I put a new set of points from Tiawan that seemed well built but the timing won't come into range. 
I can't retard the timing as I've run out of adjustment in the plate slots.
This makes me wonder if my advance springs are weak.
PeWe mentions clipping the springs and I may try that.  How many coils have you cut off PeWe?
I question whether clipping and bending the spring won't lead to it breaking during a ride.
I also went to Yamiya's site and found replacement springs...Great, give me six and I'll have spares for my brothers.
I get to where I pay and it says 26,000 Yen.  Well that's 200 bucks in round numbers!   I asked the if I ordered six cases of springs but they haven't answered yet.

TEC points are considered the best.
You’re chasing the same symptoms of aftermarket points installation others on the forum have for years. To advanced static timing. The slots in the plate won’t let you retard it far enough. If you’re going to continue running points, I’d order a new complete TEC point plate from south Honda.

And watch all your ting problems disappear 😇
Age Quod Agis

Offline PeWe

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I cut off the loop that hook spring into the advancer.
Then make a new loop by bending the first wound up.

This work fine. Both my bikes have that, both springs.

Here first time when my advancer advanced direct, full advance before 2000rpm. No spring force until 1/8 turn of the rotor.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,131339.msg1464986.html#msg1464986

This is an obvious adjustment.
It will only improve.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Deltarider

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My CB500 has done 140.000 kms now and I have never experienced sloppy springs. I must have done something wrong, I guess ;). Also a used spare advancer that I bought second hand, doesn't show sloppiness. Both are TEC.
Frankly I never quite understood this coil cutting thing, apart from possibly, possibly curing a somewhat wandering idle. I trust Honda choose the right advance for my model and any CB500/550s advancer will hit its stops already @ 2500 rpm anyway, which is within a fraction of a second after you open the throttle. The way I ride my bike, the TEC is fully avanced 99% of the time. So... what's the deal? BTW, this is not the first time I asked for an answer. So far I never had it. Often I have the impression that a problem which may, I repeat may, occur with CB750s, is generalised/transferred to other models.
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Offline Don R

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 If you ever had the floppy springs you would understand. RPM's all over the place, low and high depending on the advancer's mood and hanging idle.
 I've got Dyna, Pamco, stock, and a Gerex as well. They all work. I also have two types of ARD mags although I haven't tried to run one on a daily runner yet.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 08:49:19 PM by Don R »
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Offline 70CB750

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If you ever had the floppy springs you would understand. RPM's all over the place, low and high depending on the advancer's mood and hanging idle.

Exactly.    I shortened springs on Dorothy and I still remember the difference it made.
Prokop
_______________
Pure Gas - find ethanol free gas station near you

I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
Sidecar


CB900C

2006 KLR650

Offline Deltarider

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If you ever had the floppy springs you would understand. RPM's all over the place, low and high depending on the advancer's mood and hanging idle.
I fail to understand this. As I see it, over 2500 rpm, a CB500/550 advancer is in full advance position anyhow, because of centrifugal force, no matter how sloppy springs are. When, throttle released, RPM drop to an acceptable but maybe not a 100% perfect idle, what's the problem?
Further I'd like to know what advancer has this sloppy spring problem, the TEC, the Hitachi or both? Mine (TEC) have not.
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline rotortiller

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Quote
As I see it, over 2500 rpm, a CB500/550 advancer is in full advance position anyhow, because of centrifugal force, no matter how sloppy springs are. When, throttle released, RPM drop to an acceptable but maybe not a 100% perfect idle, what's the problem?


None lol, placebo maybe? I can see a tighter spring maybe reducing slop and rattling when ramping rpm, but I'm with you WTF would that matter after 2.5 grand on an old Briggs and Stratton tank. ;)