Author Topic: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid  (Read 9153 times)

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Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #175 on: May 28, 2024, 07:05:34 AM »
I'm calling things tentatively "okay".  Enough to pull the vacuum gauges and put all the bodywork back on.  After an afternoon of tweaking and adjusting, I got a good idle and a smooth pull off- idle.  Enough to take a couple slow laps around the yard at least.

My only concern is:

-It's very, VERY slight, but you can feel not all 4 slides come up at exactly the same time.  Annoying, but I'm willing to let this slide so long as the motor seems to run okay, which it does.

-I'm keeping my eye on cylinder 3.  It had a real tendency to pop out the exhaust, and while messing with the air screw let me eliminate it most of the time, I'm not 100% positive it's gone for good.

Road tests may change things, but I'm crossing my fingers.

--UPDATE--

Sure enough, 3 is my problem child.  She was already fouled when I started the bike, and I had to pull it and clean it just to get the engine running on four cylinders.  And then the ride was just- bad.  Lumpy, loud pops, icky burbling on acceleration, and really rough running when I stopped back at the house. 

Ugh.  Looks like carbs are coming off the bike again.  I'll double-check the air jets again, just to be sure those aren't clogged.  And at least the problem is consistent enough I've got it narrowed down to one cylinder.  Still very annoying.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2024, 12:26:24 PM by Lucien Harpress »
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #176 on: May 28, 2024, 04:46:41 PM »
#3 is going lean on you to cause the coughing and back burble?
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #177 on: May 28, 2024, 05:48:19 PM »
I'm guessing rich.  Every time I pulled that plug it was literally wet with fuel.  Even the other ones at their worst were dry (if a bit dark and fluffy).

I still need to pull plugs again from my last little ride, but from the symptoms I doubt anything has changed.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #178 on: May 28, 2024, 08:19:01 PM »
Some of this is sounding vaguely familiar to a pretty rare thing that can happen in these carbs, which is: plugged or partially-plugged air port to the idle jet. While it's pretty rare, it happened to my own 750 when I was 'down' for over 5 years with cancer and didn't ride it: I did no prep whatsoever, but just ignored the bike for 5+ years afterward. When I started it back up, the plugs in 2 of the cylinders would foul in less than 5 miles, over and over again. After $35 worth of plugs (today this would be over $100 worth!) I pulled off the carbs for the first time since 1980 to go thru them. Cleaning didn't help, mostly because they were already pretty clean. Reinstalling didn't help, either: it ran exactly the same. As soon as it got off idle, it went dead rich, and fouled 3 of the plugs in less than 5 miles, just the same again.

In the end, it turned out to be the tiny air passages that go from the little brass orifice at the back of the air bell, up to the mainjet emulsifier's hole. Two were completely blocked and one was partially blocked, all with the typical white powder found in these carb bodies after the MTBE gasolines etched their surfaces. I pulled the needle jets out to turn them 180 degrees (because they had some wear showing on the downstream side) and noticed a bit of white powder coming out with them, so I ran mechanic's wire down that passage. At first, I couldn't even get thru the passage on 2 of the carbs, while working at it got me thru the third one. Then I worked at it hard in the other 2 carbs until I could run the wire around the bend and up to the emulsifier's tunnel with ease. After reassembly, the bike ran perfectly again. There was considerable amounts of white oxide coming out of the passages, too.

This shows up in the early carbs more than the 657b and later series" probably better pot metal was used in the later ones. I have found it in many of the 657A and K0 carbs that come to me for refurb, but not to the extent mine had.

This all said: the K0 carbs have different emulsifier hole sizes from those found in the K1 and later carbs. The hole sizes are smaller: the early K0 carbs had holes as small as 0.031" for the larger ones. The small ones were the same that they still are, at 0.025". When the cams were changed in the K1 and later bikes the hole size of the larger emulsifiers went up to 0.033" (0.0325" actual, but you probably can't get a drill bit that size...), but this still caused short sparkplug life (like MAYBE 200 miles in city traffic) and we resorted to making the holes bigger (0.035") and lowering the float depths by 1mm for both floats. Keep in mind here: the 657a and earlier carbs have staggered floats, with one being 25mm and the other 26mm deep. If you're using K0 carbs, you'll find they work better with staggered floats. The 25mm side goes toward the bike's kickstand.

Your K0 carbs' idle mix adjust screw's seat is also wider than it was when the manual was written: today the air-fuel mix at 7/8 turn will match what it used to be at 1 turn out, so don't use 1 turn: use 7/8 turn (unless you're at altitude like me: I use 3/4 turn). At 1 turn the sparkplugs will be darker.

My emulsifier holes are also 0.0375: and 0.039" size, with the larger ones being in the middle of the emulsifier's length.

K0 carbs tune somewhat differently from the later versions. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #179 on: May 29, 2024, 03:36:05 PM »
Carbs are pulled again, and I separated #3 from the rack just to make it easier to work on.  I pulled the plugs to check on how those looked, and results were...  mixed.  1, 2 and 4 weren't bad.  A bit dark on the edges, but the electrode had a decent tan color starting.  It tracks, seeing as how for the last three days this bike was on idle 90% of the time, and my run "at speed" only lasted about 5 minutes.

Plug 3 was impossible to read.  I'd hit it with a wire wheel before my run yesterday, and I don't think I ran it long enough to see any change to it.  Not to mention it probably wasn't firing for most of the run anyway.  I AM getting spark on that plug, so that works at least.

Next up is going over carb 3 with a fine-tooth comb.  I'll update if I find anything.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline newday777

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #180 on: May 29, 2024, 05:53:37 PM »
" I'd hit it with a wire wheel before my run yesterday,"

Use a torch to burn it clean.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #181 on: May 31, 2024, 04:17:37 AM »
I stripped the carb down, figuring I'd see if the air jets were plugged like I thought. Those turned out to be clear to a certain extent, but while looking things over I noticed a bit of schmutz built up under the float valve. Not much, but it might explain my leaky valves. Looking at the main emulsion tube passage, however, there was a BUNCH of crud up and down that whole thing.

I have no idea where it came from- either my IV tank was dirty, parts of the carb I didn't clean well enough got knocked loose by the fuel and collected here, I don't know. Either way, it's getting another clean, the other carbs are getting double-checked, and I suppose we'll see if that's my issue.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #182 on: June 13, 2024, 06:17:54 PM »
Another day in my ongoing K0 carb saga. After a bit of not-going-anywhere-fast, I took a step back and reassessed. I took a look at the idle air screws, and, for the record, these need to be initially set at one turn out. Somehow, in all my going back and forth, all four had ended up stupidly far in- the worst was less that a quarter turn, and all four were less than a half turn.

That might explain a couple of my problems. Namely the tendency to foul plugs if I even think about touching the choke, and black fluffy plugs (at idle) all around. On the plus side, my float seals finally seemed to behave- mostly. Carb 4 will need some attention to prevent the tiniest of fuel weeping on to the ground, but that's easy enough to get to without pulling the rack.

At least the process is interesting.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #183 on: June 13, 2024, 06:23:49 PM »
I stripped the carb down, figuring I'd see if the air jets were plugged like I thought. Those turned out to be clear to a certain extent, but while looking things over I noticed a bit of schmutz built up under the float valve. Not much, but it might explain my leaky valves. Looking at the main emulsion tube passage, however, there was a BUNCH of crud up and down that whole thing.

I have no idea where it came from- either my IV tank was dirty, parts of the carb I didn't clean well enough got knocked loose by the fuel and collected here, I don't know. Either way, it's getting another clean, the other carbs are getting double-checked, and I suppose we'll see if that's my issue.

How clean is the inside of your fuel tank ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #184 on: June 13, 2024, 06:34:50 PM »
It's pretty good.  It's a new replacement from Yamiya, and I think I've only run the bike from it (ie, not from my aux testing tank) twice. 

That said, my aux tank is pretty old, and I only recently attached a filter to the feed, so I'm not ruling that out of prior issues.  Going forward shouldn't be a problem.... I hope.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline johno

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #185 on: June 13, 2024, 08:46:17 PM »
Mate Ive really enjoyed reading your thread. After reading your thread I feel you deserve a medal for your patience and determination, well done.
Im indebted for your trials and tribulations as Ive learnt lots of tips from your journey........the easy way LOL ;D
Importantly.....nice bike.
Cheers Johno
GRASSHOPPER SOHC HONDAS ARE THE MEANING OF LIFE.

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #186 on: June 14, 2024, 02:58:35 PM »
Most of what I've learned, I've done via process of elimination.  And I am REALLY good at finding what NOT to do!   ;D

I'll hit things again this weekend.  Upside is my cables are very, VERY close, and idle sync is pretty easy.  So hopefully I'm starting from a good place.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #187 on: June 18, 2024, 03:48:27 PM »
Small bits of progress.  After setting the idle air screws back to one turn out, I ended up needing to screw in the idle set screws (the big thumb-screws) almost a half-turn across the board to get it back to a decent idle.  So yeah, somehow in all of my going round-and-round, I had the mix screws screwed in WAY too far and the slides dropped down to almost nothing.  After resetting everything, I got a glimpse of how good the bike USED to run.

I'm still chasing a couple small issues.  One, carb 4 likes to seep gas out the overflow tube.  It doesn't seem to affect how the bike runs, but I'd still like to polish up the valve a bit to see if I can lock that one down.  Secondly, cylinder 1 has a new, nasty tendency to foul the plug if I look at it funny.  This may be holdover from the old FUBARed carb settings- I need to replace the plug to be sure.

The only major upsides is that my issues seem to be swapping places as I mess with stuff, and all of my screws and adjusters seem to do SOMETHING, so the chances I'm dealing with blocked passages is that much lower.  I have the feeling I'm close- I just have to get there.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #188 on: June 18, 2024, 08:20:45 PM »
Small bits of progress.  After setting the idle air screws back to one turn out, I ended up needing to screw in the idle set screws (the big thumb-screws) almost a half-turn across the board to get it back to a decent idle.  So yeah, somehow in all of my going round-and-round, I had the mix screws screwed in WAY too far and the slides dropped down to almost nothing.  After resetting everything, I got a glimpse of how good the bike USED to run.

I'm still chasing a couple small issues.  One, carb 4 likes to seep gas out the overflow tube.  It doesn't seem to affect how the bike runs, but I'd still like to polish up the valve a bit to see if I can lock that one down.  Secondly, cylinder 1 has a new, nasty tendency to foul the plug if I look at it funny.  This may be holdover from the old FUBARed carb settings- I need to replace the plug to be sure.

The only major upsides is that my issues seem to be swapping places as I mess with stuff, and all of my screws and adjusters seem to do SOMETHING, so the chances I'm dealing with blocked passages is that much lower.  I have the feeling I'm close- I just have to get there.

It sounds like they are getting close: when the idle-mix is [close to] right, it takes more of the idle-speed setscrew turns to effect the speed you want. This indicates they are mixing more efficiently, and not just pouring gas down the hole.

On a K0 carb: don't overlook the possibility that the brass overflow pipe in the bowl might be cracked, or the seal between it and the bowl compromised. The early ones suffered from "impure castings" sometimes, meaning the parts weren't as clean as they could have been, and over the years ('till now) this results in oxidation of that joint, with small fuel weeps. This weep will be coming out even if the pipe is blocked off (with a short piece of hose or a vacuum nipple), which indicates the casting is weeping. It will be coming out the pipe itself (not wetting the hose) if the pipe is cracked inside the casting instead. Either way: I use Fuel Tank Repair Epoxy (sold at auto parts stores) to dab around the base of the little pipe inside the bowl to fix them up.

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #189 on: June 18, 2024, 09:08:54 PM »
Small bits of progress.  After setting the idle air screws back to one turn out, I ended up needing to screw in the idle set screws (the big thumb-screws) almost a half-turn across the board to get it back to a decent idle.  So yeah, somehow in all of my going round-and-round, I had the mix screws screwed in WAY too far and the slides dropped down to almost nothing.  After resetting everything, I got a glimpse of how good the bike USED to run.

I'm still chasing a couple small issues.  One, carb 4 likes to seep gas out the overflow tube.  It doesn't seem to affect how the bike runs, but I'd still like to polish up the valve a bit to see if I can lock that one down.  Secondly, cylinder 1 has a new, nasty tendency to foul the plug if I look at it funny.  This may be holdover from the old FUBARed carb settings- I need to replace the plug to be sure.

The only major upsides is that my issues seem to be swapping places as I mess with stuff, and all of my screws and adjusters seem to do SOMETHING, so the chances I'm dealing with blocked passages is that much lower.  I have the feeling I'm close- I just have to get there.

It sounds like they are getting close: when the idle-mix is [close to] right, it takes more of the idle-speed setscrew turns to effect the speed you want. This indicates they are mixing more efficiently, and not just pouring gas down the hole.

On a K0 carb: don't overlook the possibility that the brass overflow pipe in the bowl might be cracked, or the seal between it and the bowl compromised. The early ones suffered from "impure castings" sometimes, meaning the parts weren't as clean as they could have been, and over the years ('till now) this results in oxidation of that joint, with small fuel weeps. This weep will be coming out even if the pipe is blocked off (with a short piece of hose or a vacuum nipple), which indicates the casting is weeping. It will be coming out the pipe itself (not wetting the hose) if the pipe is cracked inside the casting instead. Either way: I use Fuel Tank Repair Epoxy (sold at auto parts stores) to dab around the base of the little pipe inside the bowl to fix them up.

"Fuel Tank Repair Epoxy" is sold in many different brands and not many of them are recommended for ethanol gasoline;the JB Weld brand is one where I called their office in Tx. and asked,which they told me "not recommended for ethanol fuel".
Which brand are you referring to ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Finnigan

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #190 on: June 18, 2024, 09:34:05 PM »
Small bits of progress.  After setting the idle air screws back to one turn out, I ended up needing to screw in the idle set screws (the big thumb-screws) almost a half-turn across the board to get it back to a decent idle.  So yeah, somehow in all of my going round-and-round, I had the mix screws screwed in WAY too far and the slides dropped down to almost nothing.  After resetting everything, I got a glimpse of how good the bike USED to run.

I'm still chasing a couple small issues.  One, carb 4 likes to seep gas out the overflow tube.  It doesn't seem to affect how the bike runs, but I'd still like to polish up the valve a bit to see if I can lock that one down.  Secondly, cylinder 1 has a new, nasty tendency to foul the plug if I look at it funny.  This may be holdover from the old FUBARed carb settings- I need to replace the plug to be sure.

The only major upsides is that my issues seem to be swapping places as I mess with stuff, and all of my screws and adjusters seem to do SOMETHING, so the chances I'm dealing with blocked passages is that much lower.  I have the feeling I'm close- I just have to get there.

Just had a similar issue with my K0 carbs.  If I filled the bowl with water, put my thumb over the top of the overflow brass tube and blew through the rubber overflow hose I saw bubbles come out of a small crack the length of the brass tube.  Wouldn't have been able to find it with naked eye.

To fix it these are simply pressed in so I pulled it out with pliers and found that my stash of cb450 carbs share the same tube, pushed it in and solved the problem.  If you don't have a spare and find the same problem I can drop one in an envelope for you.

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #191 on: July 03, 2024, 03:28:01 PM »
Okay, so positive progress.  When I got the carbs, the needle clip was set one notch higher (richer) from stock, and while I saw it, I left it because I'd seen forum posts saying some came from the factory that way.  In any case, I finally pulled the slides and set the needles back to stock, and we are running MUCH better.  I can use the choke without fouling plugs, and I don't smell like gas every time I run the bike anymore.

Couple of caveats:

-Cylinders 1 and 3 are consistently annoying.  They have a tendancy to pop out the exhaust, and idle mix screws (especially on 3) change things, but don't actually fix it.  3 especially either pops out the pipe (lean) or doesn't seem to hit on every revolution (rich, ie the screw is turned in less than 3/4 of a turn).

-I'm getting a tendency for the idle to drop momentarily after blipping the throttle.  It'll rev just fine (minus some weirdness from 1 and 3), but when I release the throttle the revs will drop below idle momentarily, before eventually working their way back up. 

I'm not convinced my idle mix is set correctly across the board yet, but I'm much better off than I was.

Side note- I noticed that at one turn out the mix screw on #3 was oddly deeper compared to the other three at the same setting.  On the off chance the seat has been goobered up, I found me an affordable spare carb body just in case.  I hope I don't need to swap them, but it helps to have insurance.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2024, 09:17:23 AM by Lucien Harpress »
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline Lucien Harpress

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #192 on: July 12, 2024, 07:41:11 PM »
Big day the other day: the 750 saw sunlight!





The good news- from off-idle on up, she is 100% perfect.  I always worried I'd get some kind of miss or hesitation right on the very beginning on giving throttle, but the bike seemed to do just fine.  Idle took a minute to get a good place, but once the bike was warmed up it settled down okay.  I ended up doing about 10-12 miles, and at speed she was great.

The ride experience with the straight-pull throttles is... strange.  It's a bit less refined than the bell-crank throttle I had earlier, so it really feels like my Trail 90, just scaled up.  I got used to it pretty quick, but it's still odd for a bike to feel so familiar, but so different at the same time.

Now, on to the bad- at least one cylinder wasn't QUITE there.  In a shocking turn of events, it was cylinder 4, one that's been rather well-behaved in my garage tests.  I pulled the plug and compared it to 1, and it definitely looks lean.  I figure run the air screw in a touch and see what that gets me.  For the record, plug 1 looked pretty good.  I want to check plugs 2 and 3, but they are a royal pain to get to.  So they can wait.

Two other possibilities with carb 4- I'm still getting a slow fuel weep out the overflow hose (enough to stain my garage floor), and the throttle cable for that carb is kinked over a bit more compared to the other ones by the gas tank.  Stuff to check, at least.

Finally, both gauges are now a suggestion.  The speedometer is... okay, but the needle wavers quite a bit.  The tach is worse- that needle wobbles as well, but if you give it the beans the needle gets to about 7k before falling back to 3-4k and freaking out.  It usually settled down, but it took a while.  I'm going to start by cleaning out and re-greasing the little gearbox on the back of each of them.  If that doesn't work I've got a replacement tach to pull the guts out of, and I can use later (easier to find) model speedometers if I need to replace the guts on that.
-1970 CB750 K0
-1980 KZ1300
-1976 Yellow GL1000
-1965 CA77 "Dream"
-1997 Valkyrie
-1975 Velosolex

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Potential 1970 CB750 K0/K1 Hybrid
« Reply #193 on: July 12, 2024, 08:43:06 PM »
Took it out for a nice 1st ride   8) :)
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.