Author Topic: Oil Pump, No Suction?  (Read 425 times)

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Offline Ellz10

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Oil Pump, No Suction?
« on: May 22, 2023, 03:05:35 PM »
1977 Honda CB750K

I've got the Sump Thing installed, and it's all installed correctly and I can't get suction coming up out of the check valve area/oil filter port.

This is the 2nd time I've had to uninstall this and now that I'm remembering from last time, I didn't have any suction coming up last time either.

I just rebuilt the pump, including new MLS gaskets.

I do, however, have bubbles escaping coming up from the transmission port as they should.

I spun the gear for 3 minutes of continuous turning both ways just to be sure.

Anyone have a clue?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2023, 03:51:00 PM by Ellz10 »
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2023, 03:45:49 PM »
After rewatching a video I had watched to learn how to prime the pump, I'm not getting anything like what I should. I'm not getting any bubbles from the ports and areas I circled like he's getting in the video.

I'm not sure how much I can compare though with the Sump Thing installed.

I just don't know how many things are different when comparing a normal pump and a pump attached to the Sump Thing.
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Offline rotortiller

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2023, 06:00:37 PM »
The pump elements went in correctly as matched sets while noting the two gearotor pumps index marks?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2023, 07:30:28 PM »
Perhaps an explanation of how the pump sucks (sic) and pushes might help a little:
The inlet port from the tank needs to be well under the oil level in order to suck at all. That's the one toward the back of the pump: it technically needs hydrostatic head taller than the top of the pump in order to feed it fully (that's why the oil tank is so high on the bike's frame). So, set the pump in the SumpThing's pan and fill it way up to drown as much of the pump as possible. That's one thing I had to do when I put on the SumpThing.

Rotate it the same way the crankshaft turns (to the right in your picture above). Rotating it backward will cavitate the suction side and make it [re]lose prime.

The other thing I had to do, because the pump is sitting flat on its suction screen for the scavenge side, was to lay a thin wrench (6mm in my case) under the suction side of the pump to tilt it (a little bit toward you in the SumpThing picture above) so the oil was easy to draw in. Then I also propped open the suction discharge port (the one most forward) with a mechanic's wire (thin steel wire) to more easily let the meager suction of slow-speed turning not have to fight the spring in the check valve. That then loaded up the suction side, which then improved the suction of the pressure side, and finally filled both sides of the pump.

Yeah, the Sump Thing is one of those gizmos made to sell, but not necessarily made to be easy to install.  It does have nice machine work on it, though! :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2023, 07:38:46 PM »
Perhaps an explanation of how the pump sucks (sic) and pushes might help a little:
The inlet port from the tank needs to be well under the oil level in order to suck at all. That's the one toward the back of the pump: it technically needs hydrostatic head taller than the top of the pump in order to feed it fully (that's why the oil tank is so high on the bike's frame). So, set the pump in the SumpThing's pan and fill it way up to drown as much of the pump as possible. That's one thing I had to do when I put on the SumpThing.

Rotate it the same way the crankshaft turns (to the right in your picture above). Rotating it backward will cavitate the suction side and make it [re]lose prime.

The other thing I had to do, because the pump is sitting flat on its suction screen for the scavenge side, was to lay a thin wrench (6mm in my case) under the suction side of the pump to tilt it (a little bit toward you in the SumpThing picture above) so the oil was easy to draw in. Then I also propped open the suction discharge port (the one most forward) with a mechanic's wire (thin steel wire) to more easily let the meager suction of slow-speed turning not have to fight the spring in the check valve. That then loaded up the suction side, which then improved the suction of the pressure side, and finally filled both sides of the pump.

Yeah, the Sump Thing is one of those gizmos made to sell, but not necessarily made to be easy to install.  It does have nice machine work on it, though! :)

Perfectly said Mark, thank you!

Also, a positive note regarding air bubbles - I loosened the 14mm cap there, then re-tightened but only snug and then spun the gear and voila, I started seeing air bubbles escaping as there should be. Tomorrow I'm going to do as you mentioned and put some thin wire down there to prop open that suction discharge port and turn the gear again just for good measure.

Thanks!!
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2023, 11:49:03 PM »
Gotta be a frustrating adventure with the Sump Thing...
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2023, 08:38:06 AM »
Gotta be a frustrating adventure with the Sump Thing...

That's a nice way of putting it 🤣
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2023, 08:07:47 PM »
Alrighty! Super great news to report!

Tonight I got the pump installed, once again, and started to try to get that oil pressure.

It took several short bursts, but finally I got oil pressure!! Super stoked, such a great feeling to see it function as it should! I was reading 75 PSI on the gauge, so that's great - well past the recommended minimum of 50 PSI.

My only issue/concern is that I don't see oil splashing around when I look under the tappet cover that's on the rear of the motor and farthest to the right and same with farthest to the left same side (if I'm sitting on the bike looking down at the motor), however if I look under the tappet cover that's directly across from that, I see oil splashing around, shooting up and then draining back down, which I assume is what I should be seeing.

Is it normal to not see oil under that first aforementioned tappet cover?

I've attached a pic showing the tappet cover that I can't see oil splashing around under, and I'm posting the link to my video of that same tappet opening while operating the starter motor

https://youtube.com/shorts/JNTB2h7u3iU?feature=share
« Last Edit: May 23, 2023, 08:09:23 PM by Ellz10 »
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2023, 08:40:16 PM »
Success, time to start and verify not verfied things before a ride.

That priming thing is normal. Very important to have it completely submeeged in oil and rotate the sprocket so it can pump.

Loosen the valve cap needed to let air come out.

This is what I answered in the earlier thread in this priming adventure.
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2023, 11:42:07 AM »
Can anyone shed some insight as to whether it's normal to not see oil splashing around under that #4 tappet cover on the rear side with just the starter motor working the oil pump?


Edit***  So I've now taken all 4 rear tappet covers off (the ones closest to me if I were sitting on the bike) and I don't see oil splashing around when looking through any of then. But all 4 of the tappet covers on the opposite side have oil splashing around. Is it just due to the way the bike is angled or the fact that the motor is only being push via the starter motor?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 12:20:03 PM by Ellz10 »
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2023, 01:27:18 PM »
I would be concerned with the exhaust side if it is looking dry…
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Offline MauiK3

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2023, 02:01:06 PM »
Can you see into it to see if rockers have oil?
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Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2023, 03:44:01 PM »
I would be concerned with the exhaust side if it is looking dry…

Quite the contrary when it comes to the exhaust side! If I look under all 4 of the tappet covers on the exhaust side, there's oil shooting up and splashing all around.

I just don't see any oil being splashed around under the intake tappet covers.

Can you see into it to see if rockers have oil?

I'm not really sure if there's oil at the rockers or not.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 03:51:36 PM by Ellz10 »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2023, 06:02:08 PM »
Can anyone shed some insight as to whether it's normal to not see oil splashing around under that #4 tappet cover on the rear side with just the starter motor working the oil pump?


Edit***  So I've now taken all 4 rear tappet covers off (the ones closest to me if I were sitting on the bike) and I don't see oil splashing around when looking through any of then. But all 4 of the tappet covers on the opposite side have oil splashing around. Is it just due to the way the bike is angled or the fact that the motor is only being push via the starter motor?

There are 4 little 'jets' along the intake side of the 2 rocker towers. If you have oil on both sides of the exhaust (1-2 and 3-4), then you're OK. When the engine is running it spits oil out those 4 little 'jets' to hit the cam lobes (4) which then splashes it all over the rockers. The rockers are thus splash-oiled when it runs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Ellz10

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Re: Oil Pump, No Suction?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2023, 07:26:12 PM »
Can anyone shed some insight as to whether it's normal to not see oil splashing around under that #4 tappet cover on the rear side with just the starter motor working the oil pump?


Edit***  So I've now taken all 4 rear tappet covers off (the ones closest to me if I were sitting on the bike) and I don't see oil splashing around when looking through any of then. But all 4 of the tappet covers on the opposite side have oil splashing around. Is it just due to the way the bike is angled or the fact that the motor is only being push via the starter motor?

There are 4 little 'jets' along the intake side of the 2 rocker towers. If you have oil on both sides of the exhaust (1-2 and 3-4), then you're OK. When the engine is running it spits oil out those 4 little 'jets' to hit the cam lobes (4) which then splashes it all over the rockers. The rockers are thus splash-oiled when it runs.

That's great news then, thanks Mark!!!

I'll update this thread if I have anything happen that needs addressed!
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