Topic: Planned obsolescence, or not?

[oldfart]

Planned obsolescence. You don't see this talked about much on powersports user forums. A little surprising. Or is it? Vintage Honda forums--the only ones that matter to me--have not had as much reason to think in those terms as have the forums devoted to more modern machinery. With one glaringly notable exception, 1960s and 1970s Hondas (the inline fours especially) exhibit a famously observed over-built ethos on their manufacturer's part. Not tanks, exactly, but certainly the term comes to mind. It's a little ironic. Later Honda models are noticably more high tech but lack the throw-it-around durability, evocative attraction and even, arguably, day-to-day dependability of the single-cam Honda four. So, are those later model motorcycles the victims of "planned obsolescence", and if so, why shouldn't the same judgment be applied to the earlier product?

I have never like the phrase, preferring to defend Honda by saying their engineers designed 60s-70s bikes (in particular) with durability that benefitted from a calculated margin over what they knew was needed. (And that before finite analysis was common. You might say they predicted it manually, with a calculator.) Connecting rods for example, which Honda unfortunately earned some criticism for in connection with some models whose durability was demonstratively less than that of their competition. But this is not the same as planned obsolescence, which is knowing almost to the hour how long a part will last. I think Honda said, "This amount of strength plus X amount more for margin," not, "Let's plan on none of these bikes lasting more than five years." Probably the best example of true planned obsolescence in a motor vehicle context is your bike's battery. Battery technology a long time ago reached the point where the engineer knows exactly how many discharge/recharge cycles a given battery will endure. The cycle rating is as familar to the engineer as the terminal orientation is to the end user. All batteries are designed this way and this of course is not communicated to the consumer in the same manner as the number of hours a household lightbulb will last--common on the package now--let alone how long a microwave will last (two to three years?) or a modern refrigerator (four to five?)

At the end of the day, this is one of the elements--one of most important and enduring features--that makes 70s Honda SOHC fours so great. They are, very simply, elegantly--yes, elegantly--over-built. Not kludgedly, massively or blindly, without regard for efficiency in form and mass, but very carefully and artfully and knowingly. And dare I say, affectionately. When I look at the profile of one of Honda's smaller single-cam fours--the early CB500/550 especially and the jewel-like CB350F almost breathtakingly--I can't help but believe there was passion involved. Someone left their heart's imprint on those flowing lines, those seductive proportions. It has been reported that the 350F was Soichiro's favorite SOHC four and if not, maybe it should have been.

It could be I'm just an old man viewing through the understandably nostalgically focused lenses, but I don't think so. In any case, after more than fifty years of making a living in this industry, I can't think of a more pleasurable vintage Honda to own than an early 70s small SOHC four.

[Gurp]

Really enjoyed this little write up.
You have a few great points here!

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[oldfart]

"...enjoyed..."  Good!  Hopefully your delight and mine in the subject, the smaller fours, intersected.   

[BenelliSEI]

Mike….. lovely to read your comments and to hear from you! It’s been a while. I hope all is well with you!

Yesterday I replaced a hose on our 26 year old dishwasher. It’s a Kenmore, that I bough at a Clearance Centre! I wrapped it in one of the “quiet blanket kits” they used to sell, and installed it in cabinets I built myself. The ones adjacent to the dishwasher have an air gap, into which I added a thin sheet of wallboard we used in “soundproof” office construction. We then poured our own concrete counter tops.

I love it when my wife hosts a dinner party and before we finish desert, the machine is running. Invariably, someone says “is your dishwasher actually running?”. A good basic design, and a little common sense, can make a really delightful product.

I notice my kids are more interested in the latest designer fashion brands, than performance and reputation. Sadly, as you note, most appliances and equipment is now specifically built to meet a very narrow timeline. Despite the realities, I recently had to listen to the virtues of a $300 toaster! Seriously? I have learned to keep my mouth shut, otherwise there would be another “old fart”.

John D., in Canada.

[jlh3rd]

amen...
I think the vintage honda sohc 4's are timeless.
Honda had to prove itself and build the best bike they could to compete with the other Japanese bikes...who were trying to build their own "better" bike....It was a win win for the consumer....( like the vintage stereo "receiver wars")
Change the oil and filter and that honda would run forever.
I am always surprised to see the large representation of these old surviving hondas on display at vintage bike shows.

[MauiK3]

Another old fart here.
Wonderful essay about Hondas, I agree, the Sohc series bikes are unique in this way. There are other examples of this kind of thinking. Here on Maui we are seeing an influx of 25 year old Kei trucks from Japan. My Honda Acty will be here in June, they seem similarly built. Very tough little trucks.
I don’t have a dishwasher here, energy is too expensive, we hand wash.
But I built every cabinet in our kitchen as well as the kitchen in our “Ohana” downstairs (it’s a separate, complete living space, my youngest is there, common here in Hawaii). We had a local stone shop do the counter tops, I was not confident I could pull off the concrete job.
I agree that many of the products we see now are not intended to be kept running, use them for a bit and discard. It sad. Even high end tools can be disappointing. My SawStop table saw is pretty good so far. Refrigerators? Don’t get me started! Washing machines? Same reaction.
Happy Memorial Day folks, this is a great forum.

[oldfart]

"A good basic design, and a little common sense, can make a really delightful product."

John D., in Canada.

John, hello and thanks!

[oldfart]

I agree that many of the products we see now are not intended to be kept running, use them for a bit and discard. It sad. This is a great forum.

 

[oldfart]

Honda had to prove itself and build the best bike they could...

 

[HondaMan]

I knew in 1973, when my Honda mentor had returned to upstate NY after college with his high-mileage sandcast and sent me a letter how he was rebuilding his bike at over 100k miles, this was going to change everything in bikes. While it did for a while, after Sochiro stepped down (1973) from running Honda and let others do it while he worked in the plants himself, the once-gigantic footprint of Honda's reliability began to fade. While it still beat the others until the early 1980s, you're right about how things became built afterwards. Even BMW's legendary bikes began to lose lifetime as they all seemed to change to the go-faster, sell cheaper mantra of making bikes that can't make it "to the ton" without extreme care. In the end, Honda's quest for "3 Hondas in every garage (one car, one bike, and one mower or snowblower) seemed to take over. Made me sad.

[grcamna2]

Mike,thank you for this thread;quality rather than quantity 

I also love quality shoes and boots that can be re-soled 

[Gurp]

Especially now in automobiles with everything being electronic requiring updates. It's only so long before the hardware and or software becomes obsolete and is no longer supported. We see that quite often now most commonly with cellular devices. They're the new hot thing for 6 months to a year 5 to 7 years later you can't even run apps on them because that version of an operating system is not supported anymore and the hardware can't keep up with the newest operating system out there..

It seems through the '90s we were building stuff that was only meant to last long enough to be good in the used market for a little while and then become obsolete or inserviceable. And now the hardware will far out last the support for the available software or ability for the software to be updated.


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[Kevin]

It could be I'm just an old man viewing through the understandably nostalgically focused lenses, but I don't think so. In any case, after more than fifty years of making a living in this industry, I can't think of a more pleasurable vintage Honda to own than an early 70s small SOHC four.

I couldn't agree with you more about the small SOHC four's, they make me smile ecverytime I walk past them.

I think that if governments really believed in global warming, and that we are running out of resources, they would make manufactures
produce products that would last and could be repaired by the consumer. The fact that your cell phone battery (and some laptops too) cannot be replaced by the consumer tells me that the powers that be are only interested in consumption and not conservation.

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[newday777]

It could be I'm just an old man viewing through the understandably nostalgically focused lenses, but I don't think so. In any case, after more than fifty years of making a living in this industry, I can't think of a more pleasurable vintage Honda to own than an early 70s small SOHC four.

I couldn't agree with you more about the small SOHC four's, they make me smile ecverytime I walk past them.

I think that if governments really believed in global warming, and that we are running out of resources, they would make manufactures
produce products that would last and could be repaired by the consumer. The fact that your cell phone battery (and some laptops too) cannot be replaced by the consumer tells me that the powers that be are only interested in consumption and not conservation.

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100%!

[Quattrocilindri]

I totally agree. But that concept of "Planned Obsolescence" was already being thrown around 50 + years ago, when just about any product manufactured industrially was designed with the provision for indefinitely refurbishing, rebuilding, renewing, or refreshing it with a vast array of spare parts available.
Today's products, however, are strictly children of CAD/CAM industrial production, and you just can't economically build updated versions with old machinery that is only usable without sophisticated computer software.

Since we are talking motorcycles as transportation vehicles, the push for modern designs is really being driven by ever stricter emission and noise standards, along with extensive use of cheap plastic parts to make the final product affordable and discourage the aftermarket to invest in OEM replacement parts.

So, we better enjoy our "obsolete" SOHC bikes while we still can, before emission rules will make them illegal to operate and expensive enough to maintain. And yes, I thoroughly love my jewel 1973 CB 350F!

[calj737]

Even BMW's legendary bikes began to lose lifetime as they all seemed to change to the go-faster, sell cheaper mantra of making bikes that can't make it "to the ton" without extreme care.

You are ill-informed and ignorant of the depth of the BMW bike market. I’d wager there are more BMWs Airheads with well over 100k miles on them than there are SOHCs. That does not even begin to include the K and R model line-up. Their boxer engine is one of the most durable, easy to service, and long living motors made.

I’ve got an ‘87 triple with over 260k miles on the original engine, never rebuilt as an example. It is capable to this day of two-up riding with hard bags for a cross country trip at a moments notice. Quality bikes and sturdy like a forged hammer.

[bryanj]

BMW have their problems, wiring being one and i have seen bad cranks and lots of oil seals in my workshop time.
You have to know them to make them run right and yes the BM backup is not as good these days, they used to keep the 12 month warantee on police bikes but not now, better than Triumph and Norton who gave non at all!

[BenelliSEI]

During COVID lockdown, I totally converted to on line banking and bill paying. I’m most certainly NOT very “tech savvy”, but some modern conveniences are just too hard to ignore.

A few weeks ago, my bank released the latest version of their app. Guess what? It’s not compatible with my 8 year old IPad! I was saved by a coincidental Birthday and am now using my new IPad. There was no other option. The old one is obsolete. What nonsense. My best efforts to repair, reuse and recycle are totally frustrated.

[calj737]

During COVID lockdown, I totally converted to on line banking and bill paying. I’m most certainly NOT very “tech savvy”, but some modern conveniences are just too hard to ignore.

A few weeks ago, my bank released the latest version of their app. Guess what? It’s not compatible with my 8 year old IPad! I was saved by a coincidental Birthday and am now using my new IPad. There was no other option. The old one is obsolete. What nonsense. My best efforts to repair, reuse and recycle are totally frustrated.

If you expect software developers to become static in their development of features and enhancements so that you can continue running an 8 year old piece of consumer grade electronic device to conduct your digital lifestyle, you are oblivious to what is technically happening beneath the covers.

Software apps and OS’es must evolve as the chipsets they run on do. If you are content to run an 8-bit OS and restrict yourself to the capabilities of that software, then you should rummage up an Atari and abandon the web, forums, eBay, Amazon, online banking, reservation systems, etc.

Your search for used parts for your beloved motorbikes also needs to return to paper and monthly catalogs or journals. Still sticking to your grievance of a $500 device that ran for 8 years (roughly $60/year, or $5/month, or $1.25/day) for all that convenience? Come on, get some perspective…

[oldfart]

I thoroughly love my jewel 1973 CB 350F!

 

[C317414]

In 1985 my wife and I bought a new Dodge Omni GLH Turbo.  At the time Dodge offered a 3-year/36,000 mile warranty.  Interestingly enough, the timing belt interval on the engine was 36,000 miles.  As the car approached the 36,000 mark, I intended to change the belt, but I was too busy to do it.  I was not too concerned, because the turbo engine had low compression pistons, and was not an interference design.

Sure enough, the belt failed shortly before 37,000 miles.  Had it failed before 36,000, the replacement would have been done under warranty.  Moreover, the part number of the belt had been superseded, coinciding with the introduction of a 5-year/50,000 mile warranty on new Dodge cars. 

Our car was just like this one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/1985_Dodge_Omni_GLH_%2835085818066%29.jpg

[C317414]

During COVID lockdown, I totally converted to on line banking and bill paying. I’m most certainly NOT very “tech savvy”, but some modern conveniences are just too hard to ignore.

A few weeks ago, my bank released the latest version of their app. Guess what? It’s not compatible with my 8 year old IPad! I was saved by a coincidental Birthday and am now using my new IPad. There was no other option. The old one is obsolete. What nonsense. My best efforts to repair, reuse and recycle are totally frustrated.

This is my concern with many devices today that connect to a phone via bluetooth.  The device may last a long time, but phone technology and Apps will evolve and leave it behind. 

A friend recently redid the house battery system on his boat.  He now has LiFe batteries with Battery Management Systems that connect to his phone via Bluetooth, and an inverter-charger that does the same.  Both of these are items that should last many years.  The question is whether he will be able to connect to them in the future. 

[MauiK3]

Lots of good stuff here.
I too did the iPad upgrade for similar reasons. It is sad to create so much electronic waste but my iPhone I have now is so much better than the first mobile phone I had, it was a lunchbox size truck mounted monster. My first flip phone was ok......for calls, not much else.
Life goes on
I'm just glad I captured a great piece of lasting industrial art in my K3 750. I'm pretty sure no one in my family will use it when I too go to the great gig in the sky but at least I'll go with a smile on my face for having enjoyed it.

[PeWe]

Newer phones have really good camera(s) with good storage. My phone is 4 years old and still up to date.
Oneplus 7 Pro with 12GB ram, 256GB storage.

Recently got Android 12. Not slower after that, runs quicker and smoother.

Older phones became useless quicker since their operating system stopped to get updates and apps stopped working.

Forgot to mention that I have done all my bills via Internet bank since 1996.
All economy related via telephone apps to my banks.
Bank ID app that is used when buying things or logging in to banks etc.

Money transfer  app for transfer money to others phone numbers that also have that app with bank account references. Easy to pay private persons, shops to governmental stuff.

One click shutting Internet down and everything stops......

[grcamna2]

Lots of good stuff here.
I too did the iPad upgrade for similar reasons. It is sad to create so much electronic waste but my iPhone I have now is so much better than the first mobile phone I had, it was a lunchbox size truck mounted monster. My first flip phone was ok......for calls, not much else.
Life goes on
I'm just glad I captured a great piece of lasting industrial art in my K3 750. I'm pretty sure no one in my family will use it when I too go to the great gig in the sky but at least I'll go with a smile on my face for having enjoyed it.

Have you tried the Z1 yet ?

[MauiK3]

I’m about to restart the project. Most of my delay has been my garage was jammed full due to my oldest moving in (with 2 grandkids) while she searched for a place, she found it now. I’ve also done some pretty big home projects. I’m hoping for the best, if it doesn’t work I’ll have a difficult decision to make. I’m not used to failing to figure such things out, I hope I can get it going.

[grcamna2]

I’m about to restart the project. Most of my delay has been my garage was jammed full due to my oldest moving in (with 2 grandkids) while she searched for a place, she found it now. I’ve also done some pretty big home projects. I’m hoping for the best, if it doesn’t work I’ll have a difficult decision to make. I’m not used to failing to figure such things out, I hope I can get it going.

You will prevail 

[beemerbum]

Lots of good stuff here.
I too did the iPad upgrade for similar reasons. It is sad to create so much electronic waste but my iPhone I have now is so much better than the first mobile phone I had, it was a lunchbox size truck mounted monster. My first flip phone was ok......for calls, not much else.
Life goes on
I'm just glad I captured a great piece of lasting industrial art in my K3 750. I'm pretty sure no one in my family will use it when I too go to the great gig in the sky but at least I'll go with a smile on my face for having enjoyed it.

Have you tried the Z1 yet ? I have indeed. No question an excellent machine. Nevertheless there is something aesthetically pleasing about the look of the SOHC4 motor. In particular the sculpted cam cover of the CB 750. Twin cams, after all the subsequent UJM's even from Honda just lacked the charm. In any event beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.

[Deltarider]

Even BMW's legendary bikes began to lose lifetime as they all seemed to change to the go-faster, sell cheaper mantra of making bikes that can't make it "to the ton" without extreme care.

You are ill-informed and ignorant of the depth of the BMW bike market. I’d wager there are more BMWs Airheads with well over 100k miles on them than there are SOHCs. That does not even begin to include the K and R model line-up. Their boxer engine is one of the most durable, easy to service, and long living motors made.

I’ve got an ‘87 triple with over 260k miles on the original engine, never rebuilt as an example. It is capable to this day of two-up riding with hard bags for a cross country trip at a moments notice. Quality bikes and sturdy like a forged hammer.

Back in the 70s I met this Austrian BMW mechanic in the Sahara desert. He rode a Russian Dnjepr in which he had fitted a BMW boxer. In the sidecar he had even a little refrigarator built in. At the campfire we discussed bikes and I asked him which one I should buy, if I ever wanted one.
'Not a BMW', he replied to my surprise, 'we're almost finished'. He was referring to rumors that BMW seriously considered ending the manufacture of motorcycles all together and return to small cars again. In the opinion of the Austrian mechanic BMW would not be able to catch up anymore. Well, look where they are now.  
"If I were you, I'd opt for one of the CBFours." When back in Amsterdam, I asked a restorer of British twoseaters. He gave me more or less the same answer: don't buy British. If you want a reliable bike, have a Honda Four.
Now, there's durability and there's reliability and people often mix these up. Yes, boxers can go a long way, but what if every 40.000 km or so you have to take the engine apart for a small 25 cents seal pissing oil? What about cold starts? BMW's were notorious for bad starting, as I also found out when I rode one in British Columbia for a week. And I had made sure everything was up to spec. BTW, have you ever tried to set the ignition on one of them old boxers? Did you like the compromise?
Recently I read an article about the technical aspects of that recently released big boxer (1600cc or so?) in a magazine for professionals in the automotive branche. In it BMW's press release was cited in which the company proudly proclaimed they had projected its technical life for a ton. Are you kidding me? Nowadays every Japanese bike over 500cc is expected to do 3 tons with just regular maintenance.
Is there something good to say about BMW? Certainly, the K75 has a very good reputation and, btw, much better than the earlier K100. But that info is from hearsay, knowing the AA and BMW mecs in the workshops.
My CB500 has been with me since 1980 and apart from flat tyres, it has died en route only once. In torrential rain the ignition (probably the plugs) was soaked. Next morning, without me having done anything, it started right up again. Another event that I have described here in this forum, was the failure of the IGN SWITCH right before entering a tunnel. Luckily just by fiddling the key, I was able to make it home. So far my report on reliability and I guess my 43 years experience is enough to be well-informed. The bike is 47 years old, btw.

[MauiK3]

Yep, the old Hondas surely have that "something" and a lot of it.

[Rosinante]

Another old fart here.  I wish I had known, when I was younger, the importance of buying quality.  In the long run, quality things are less expensive because they last longer.  They also perform better in the meantime.  A few years ago I got tired of having a drawer full of screwdrivers with bad tips.  Instead of getting another $20 set of cheap ones, I splurged for the Snap-On set.  Wish I had done that in 1973.

Yes, today's stuff is made to eventually fail, after poor performance.  I walk on by those today, and purchase something worth buying instead.

[C317414]

Another old fart here.  I wish I had known, when I was younger, the importance of buying quality.  In the long run, quality things are less expensive because they last longer.  They also perform better in the meantime.  A few years ago I got tired of having a drawer full of screwdrivers with bad tips.  Instead of getting another $20 set of cheap ones, I splurged for the Snap-On set.  Wish I had done that in 1973.

Yes, today's stuff is made to eventually fail, after poor performance.  I walk on by those today, and purchase something worth buying instead.

Many are not willing to pay more for higher quality, this eventually leads to the demise of some companies.   For example, my wife and I like using a traveling lawn sprinkler to water our yard.  Not knowing better, we bought a cheap one, and it lasted a year.   After that,  I did some research, and bought a high-quality, expensive one from National Walking Sprinkler.  I ran great for over 10 years. 

After cleaning and lubing it earlier this month, I noticed that it was not running as well.  I decided to take it apart to replace some of the worn parts (they are fully rebuildable).  When I went to order the parts I was surprised to find out that the company, established in 1937, has gone out of business. 

https://www.nationalwalkingsprinkler.com/

[Rosinante]

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of consumers here prefer the least possible cost products, nearly always made in China, found at a certain very large retailer.  Among other things, this is a transfer of wealth and jobs from one country to another.  I wonder what would happen if......aw, nevermind.

[calj737]

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of consumers here prefer the least possible cost products, nearly always made in China, found at a certain very large retailer.  Among other things, this is a transfer of wealth and jobs from one country to another.  I wonder what would happen if......aw, nevermind.

Yep. “Thy name is hypocrisy…”

[willbird]

Sadly, the overwhelming majority of consumers here prefer the least possible cost products, nearly always made in China, found at a certain very large retailer.  Among other things, this is a transfer of wealth and jobs from one country to another.  I wonder what would happen if......aw, nevermind.

I vastly prefer walking into a brick and mortar store and buying a tool or part that I need.

The store which was not named actually does have product that you can walk in and buy.

For darn sure not all my tools come from there, not even close. But my 5 drawer tool cart that I just used at work did, I could have ordered one or bought one from a tool truck for 3X-4X more money that would not offer me the user anything of worth for the extra $$.

Some made the same type of grumbles about the new 1972 CB750K my dad bought new too ;-).....and I took it for a ride today, it is still doing what it was bought to do :-).

[calj737]

But my 5 drawer tool cart that I just used at work did, I could have ordered one or bought one from a tool truck for 3X-4X more money that would not offer me the user anything of worth for the extra $$.

I have heard many cite this scenario of paying much more for a tool from a “truck” and disagreeing with the price delta versus a store-bought brand. But for most professionals, a truck comes by weekly, and if you need something or need to exchange/replace/repair something, if there’s one on the truck it’s yours on the spot. No questions asked, no receipts needed, no time wasted in lines with consumers. Time vs money and convenience. Well worth the delta.

And I beg to differ about the durability and of a truck brand tool box and a store bought tool box. The drawer guides and metal are substantially stronger in the truck brands. My son bought one from a store and sits next to my truck brand (19 years old vs 15 months old). His drawers are broken, won’t stay closed, and his power ports are all dysfunctional. Meanwhile mine (I don’t have power ports) still hold lots more tools than his and close with a gentle bump.

[willbird]

But my 5 drawer tool cart that I just used at work did, I could have ordered one or bought one from a tool truck for 3X-4X more money that would not offer me the user anything of worth for the extra $$.

I have heard many cite this scenario of paying much more for a tool from a “truck” and disagreeing with the price delta versus a store-bought brand. But for most professionals, a truck comes by weekly, and if you need something or need to exchange/replace/repair something, if there’s one on the truck it’s yours on the spot. No questions asked, no receipts needed, no time wasted in lines with consumers. Time vs money and convenience. Well worth the delta.

And I beg to differ about the durability and of a truck brand tool box and a store bought tool box. The drawer guides and metal are substantially stronger in the truck brands. My son bought one from a store and sits next to my truck brand (19 years old vs 15 months old). His drawers are broken, won’t stay closed, and his power ports are all dysfunctional. Meanwhile mine (I don’t have power ports) still hold lots more tools than his and close with a gentle bump.

I work in Industrial Maintenance. There is no truck that comes by every week. 20 folks at least have this same 5 drawer tool carts in every color they make. None of them have failed. We roll them all over the building across bumpy expansion joints too.

The store we are talking about without naming it does sell some stuff only worth it's price or maybe not even that. But that 5 drawer on sale right now for $199 is not one of those ;-).

I have had mine for 3 years and counting. I also have the lid totally loaded with sockets held on with powerful magnet strips. I did upgrade the lid shocks to compensate for sticking all that stuff on the inside of the lid.

And any of the 7 days of the week 8AM to 8PM a person can walk into a brick and mortar and load one up. Now they DO have to take about an hour and assemble it.  The low price point makes modifying it to suit the user an easier choice too.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/modifications-to-the-hf-4-and-5-drawer-service-carts-what-changes-have-you-made.137365/

I love spotting these in YouTube videos, any time I see a possible one I keep my eyes peeled to see what brand it is ;-).


Bill

[bwaller]

Interesting topic Mike. I worked in motorcycle shops until 76 and felt the same way about the sohc fours. I've owned a 750 for 50 years, but enjoyed the smaller fours for what they were intended to be.

I roadaced, then retired, then discovered vintage, but for me I was racing those same Honda fours, so nothing changed except a period of time! A CB550 engine with double original HP and never had a DNF. Awesome. My 750K3 sat in my shop while I scratched my racing itch. Now I'm riding it again and feeling very familiar on it after so many years.

I agree and doubt there was such a thing as your "planned obsolescence" with these bikes. Ride on!