Topic: K0 clutch won't disengage

[Turbogrimace]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

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Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[HondaMan]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

[Turbogrimace]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[newday777]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do you understand what happens when you left the lever out? The cork discs make pressure against the metal discs to grab the power of the motor and if the rust spots are present then you get jerky slip of transfer of the power to the transmission,  thus the jerky feeling you experienced and expressed.

[scottly]

The throwout pin is making contact and adjusts properly. If it was too short, I'd run out of thread. I think the part number for the throwout parts is the same for all years. Only minor differences in the clutch cover.

When I had the k0 setup in there,  I set it up exactly as the diagram showed and the stack height was too short. Odd odd odd.

I set up the k5 per the diagram too. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I had trouble adjusting the clutch on my K1 years ago. The main culprit turned out to be a worn out clutch lever bushing, plus a worn out pivot bolt. No matter how I adjusted the bottom lever and the cable, I would have either a slipping clutch when WFO (with a HiPo 836 ), or a dragging clutch. The wear in the pivot let the end of the lever move over an inch before the bottom lever started to move, even with zero play. This limited the travel of the lifter pin.
Regarding the jerking that only happens in second gear, my gut feeling is either snap rings not properly installed on the trans shafts or maybe a bent shift fork? The trans might be trying to engage two gears at the same time:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86429.0

[Turbogrimace]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do you understand what happens when you left the lever out? The cork discs make pressure against the metal discs to grab the power of the motor and if the rust spots are present then you get jerky slip of transfer of the power to the transmission,  thus the jerky feeling you experienced and expressed.

Understood, but the jerking occurs after the clutch is fully engaged. Intermittently as you use 2nd gear. I would think the rust spots would cause jerk while letting the clutch out before it was fully engaged. Does that logic hold water?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[Turbogrimace]

The throwout pin is making contact and adjusts properly. If it was too short, I'd run out of thread. I think the part number for the throwout parts is the same for all years. Only minor differences in the clutch cover.

When I had the k0 setup in there,  I set it up exactly as the diagram showed and the stack height was too short. Odd odd odd.

I set up the k5 per the diagram too. 

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I had trouble adjusting the clutch on my K1 years ago. The main culprit turned out to be a worn out clutch lever bushing, plus a worn out pivot bolt. No matter how I adjusted the bottom lever and the cable, I would have either a slipping clutch when WFO (with a HiPo 836 ), or a dragging clutch. The wear in the pivot let the end of the lever move over an inch before the bottom lever started to move, even with zero play. This limited the travel of the lifter pin.
Regarding the jerking that only happens in second gear, my gut feeling is either snap rings not properly installed on the trans shafts or maybe a bent shift fork? The trans might be trying to engage two gears at the same time:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86429.0

Thanks for the info. There were no snap rings on either the k0 setup or the k5 setup I swapped it with though.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

[scottly]

I meant the snap rings that locate the gears on the transmission shafts. This is about the jerking, which, if only happens in second gear, indicates a trans problem, not related to the clutch.

[Turbogrimace]

I meant the snap rings that locate the gears on the transmission shafts. This is about the jerking, which, if only happens in second gear, indicates a trans problem, not related to the clutch.

Righto. That's what I assumed. Based on the looks of it, I don't think anyone has messed with the bottom end. I'm ousting the bike together for a friend to take down to NC in a couple weeks. I told him just to skip 2nd haha.

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[scottly]

You know, I now recall a guy that had a trans problem that was caused by the slightly curved clutch washer that fits under the nut being installed the wrong way. The correct way is with the concave side facing the motor, and the convex side facing out.

[newday777]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do you understand what happens when you left the lever out? The cork discs make pressure against the metal discs to grab the power of the motor and if the rust spots are present then you get jerky slip of transfer of the power to the transmission,  thus the jerky feeling you experienced and expressed.

Understood, but the jerking occurs after the clutch is fully engaged. Intermittently as you use 2nd gear. I would think the rust spots would cause jerk while letting the clutch out before it was fully engaged. Does that logic hold water?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

What does your rear tire do when you take off and then hits some grains of sand on the pavement? It slips until you get off those few grains in that spot.
The rust is like those grains of sand. It doesn't grab fully in those spots on the plate yes even when fully engaged. Second gear is a lot more torque than 3-5.
Clean the disc spots.

[scottly]

What does your rear tire do when you take off and then hits some grains of sand on the pavement? It slips until you get off those few grains in that spot.
The rust is like those grains of sand. It doesn't grab fully in those spots on the plate yes even when fully engaged. Second gear is a lot more torque than 3-5.
Clean the disc spots.

If that were the case, it would be even worse in first gear than second.

[Turbogrimace]

Thats my point. A little rust on the plates would affect hookup and not well after the clutch lever was fully released. The rust spots are gone on those plates and I feel like if I tried to sand out all the discoloration, the disc's would end up thinner in those spots. I used some worn out 320 lightly on a DA so the plate was sanded somewhat uniformly.

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[Dummysales]

Good evening.

I had the symptoms you speak of with no clutch release even with the cable all tight with no free play at the lever end. Two things happened to me. I broke all four of the legs on the pressure plate trying to get the plate to move. I suspect I didnt have the plate gear teeth aligned correctly with the fiber plates. A few too many turns on the nuts and things got real loose. So I'd say check your assembly of the steel and fiber plates relative to how they interact with the pressure plate teeth. If they aren't seated correctly, that could be a big problem.
The other thing is, with my same experience as yours with the adjustment nut on the outside on the shaft, with a little help from a friend I screwed that shaft all the way to contact and barely backed it out, probably less than an 1/8th of a turn. With the adjustment like that, I can at least get it into first gear and shift in motion mostly normal. Some of my shifting issues may be bent shifting forks or chain too loose. I've owned this 70 since 73. I try mechanics, and then go find somebody that really knows. Waj

[Dummysales]

error in last reply. It wasn't the fiber plates that didn't mesh with the pressure plate, it was the inner hub. waj

[HondaMan]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Argh...I was wondering about that...
Here is the second, more sinister(?) cause: if the "L" shifter fork in the tranny is bent, it will make 2nd gear jerkily engage-disengage, especially under power.

This damage happens if the bike fell over to the left without the engine running and the shifter got pressed UP by something in the process. The most-common situation is: the bike gets tipped off the side/center stand when the car pulled into the garage (in the dark?). What happens to the "L" fork is: the whole weight of the falling bike presses it upward to try to shift into 2nd, but this shift is impossible unless the engine is running, or the rear wheel is elevated off the ground and can rotate a bit. After the incident, the "L" fork cannot fully push the C5 gear into the C2 gear, so the dogs intermittently grip-loosen-grip, etc.

Your advice to the rider is actually sound: about 8 years ago a local rider here brought me his 750K2 to repair, which had this very thing happen to it. The bike had over 40k miles on it (wanted a general rebuild) and the "L" fork was so bent that the 2nd gear was still Neutral. He had ridden it as 1-3-4-5-4-3-1 for almost 15 years, and it was none the worse for wear: I replaced the "L" fork and it runs fine ever since.

[Turbogrimace]

This one had oiling holes at least. Now my concern is 2nd gear. It jerks like downshifting without clutching. If I accelerate hard, it stays in sometimes. Under a lighter load it jerks. I guess it's just slipping temporarily from worn dogs, but not completely falling out to a false neutral.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Do the steel plates still look like those in the first picture of this thread? If so, I might suggest steel-wooling those dark spots off the steel ones where they are so dark. They get rusted like that from sitting (I see it a LOT in the engines that come here) and this will make the cork stick a little bit to the steel rust grit.

You think that would help with 2nd gear or is that to make shifting smoother overall? I'd expect the latter but hope for the former haha.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

In my experience, it helps all the shifts. The 1 and 2 gear ratios are taller against the clutch than the 3/4/5 are, so you can feel the lack of smooth grip & slip more in those lower gears. When shifting into 1st at a stop, the entire inertia of the transmission 'breaks' the friction for you, but when going into 2nd it is that momentary 'no-gear' moment we call Neutral that lets the corks (especially new ones) grip suddenly and they need the impact of 2nd gear's inertia to re-break it again. The result is a sort of 'sticky' clutch. If ridden a lot, it will eventually wear off the rusty-crusts on the steel ones by itself, but it does so by embedding them into the cork, which also tends to add some wear against the steel ones over time.

I sanded them down a bit to where those spots were only discoloration. The plates felt smooth over the entire surface. Still though, would this make any difference with the jerking that occurs while in 2nd gear? It's not just during shifting.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Argh...I was wondering about that...
Here is the second, more sinister(?) cause: if the "L" shifter fork in the tranny is bent, it will make 2nd gear jerkily engage-disengage, especially under power.

This damage happens if the bike fell over to the left without the engine running and the shifter got pressed UP by something in the process. The most-common situation is: the bike gets tipped off the side/center stand when the car pulled into the garage (in the dark?). What happens to the "L" fork is: the whole weight of the falling bike presses it upward to try to shift into 2nd, but this shift is impossible unless the engine is running, or the rear wheel is elevated off the ground and can rotate a bit. After the incident, the "L" fork cannot fully push the C5 gear into the C2 gear, so the dogs intermittently grip-loosen-grip, etc.

Your advice to the rider is actually sound: about 8 years ago a local rider here brought me his 750K2 to repair, which had this very thing happen to it. The bike had over 40k miles on it (wanted a general rebuild) and the "L" fork was so bent that the 2nd gear was still Neutral. He had ridden it as 1-3-4-5-4-3-1 for almost 15 years, and it was none the worse for wear: I replaced the "L" fork and it runs fine ever since.

Thanks for the input Mr. Man. I have nerve damage in my hands which makes the clutch a bit painful sometimes, so I regularly ride 1-3-5-3-1. I haven't had a problem on any of my bikes. The power is there and the gearing overlaps plenty.

Hopefully the rest of the bike can won't give me any trouble, and I can have it ready for him by the end of next week. Skip 2nd for a while, and when I'm feeling frisky, we'll pull it apart. It needs a new head anyhow.

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