Author Topic: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns  (Read 642 times)

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Offline Rosinante

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K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« on: May 28, 2023, 05:18:29 PM »
Book says start at 1.5 turns out.  They are certainly not working at that setting and also not at 2.0 turns and not sure about 2.5.  I want to make this adjustment but I need to get the bike to idle.  Idle at all.  So that I can fine tune it like the book says. 

It seems to me I have read that some folks have gotten success and something closer to 3 turns out.  So I am wondering what setting to use as a beginning.  And perhaps I will just try settings in increments of .5 turns, but this bike, and particularly #2, is hard to do.  Because of the cramped space and...ummmm....those hot cylinder fins. 

those of you who have done this adjustment on a K7-K8 bike.....what was your experience?
1978 CB750K

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2023, 06:16:24 PM »
My K8 was set at 1.5 on the bench and I never touched them. Sync’d the carbs off #2 with a manometer, at idle and then adjusted idle with the knob.

Offline denward17

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2023, 07:38:05 PM »
I started with 1.5 turns out, then tried 2, then back to 1.

I could not discern any difference between any setting.

Offline enwri

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2023, 07:47:14 PM »
They're fuel mixture screws that reduce fuel as they are screwed in. Turning them out increases fuel.
If it wont idle lower than 1500 without stalling, and mixture screw adjustment makes no difference, the idle jets or the passages are blocked.
If you have to move the idle adjuster so high that the throttle is open, it is enough to run on the needle and whatever it can get through the idle circuit.

Mine are at 2 out.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2023, 09:11:05 PM by enwri »
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Offline stocky

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2023, 09:59:56 PM »
I started with 1.5 turns out, then tried 2, then back to 1.

I could not discern any difference between any setting.

I also started at 1.5 and backed it out a good amount, then back in, then back out to 1.5 and I couldn't tell any difference either.

Forgot to add this was for my k7

Offline newday777

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2023, 03:25:46 AM »
Book says start at 1.5 turns out.  They are certainly not working at that setting and also not at 2.0 turns and not sure about 2.5.  I want to make this adjustment but I need to get the bike to idle.  Idle at all.  So that I can fine tune it like the book says. 

It seems to me I have read that some folks have gotten success and something closer to 3 turns out.  So I am wondering what setting to use as a beginning.  And perhaps I will just try settings in increments of .5 turns, but this bike, and particularly #2, is hard to do.  Because of the cramped space and...ummmm....those hot cylinder fins. 

those of you who have done this adjustment on a K7-K8 bike.....what was your experience?

The PD carbs screw is a fuel flow as apposed to air of the round top carbs.

Did you get the old tiny orings out and flat washer out of each screw and replace the orings?
How you cleaned the carbs is very important on these PD carbs......it effects the results.....
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2023, 04:49:07 AM »
I started with 1.5 turns out, then tried 2, then back to 1.

I could not discern any difference between any setting.

I also started at 1.5 and backed it out a good amount, then back in, then back out to 1.5 and I couldn't tell any difference either.

Forgot to add this was for my k7

+1 to the above.

Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2023, 08:01:24 AM »
Did you get the old tiny orings out and flat washer out of each screw and replace the orings?
How you cleaned the carbs is very important on these PD carbs......it effects the results.....

These carbs were professionally rebuilt by someone considered to be a competent SOHC4 shop.  I have every reason to believe they were done right.  But of course.....you never know.

Here is what I am going to do today:  Adjust valves and set all idle screws to 1.5 turns.  Go for a ride.  Synch carbs at idle.  See what happens.

I acquired this bike in remembrance of the '75 CB750 I had in college.  Cold, that bike would start if you closed the choke and pushed the starter button for one second, then idle smoothly.  Hot, you simply skip the choke step.  It would purr at stop lights.  My current K8 does not behave this way, but this is the goal.  Currently, it runs great off idle.  Then dies at stop lights.

Thanks to all who contributed. 
1978 CB750K

Offline denward17

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2023, 08:15:54 AM »
My K8 needs the choke pulled on the first 1/2 mile of riding.  The first stop sign is about 1/2 mile away.  If I leave the choke pulled up it will idle about 3K RPM at the stop sign.  If I turn the choke off, it will not idle, it will stumble and the engine will cut off.

After riding about another mile I can turn the choke off and it idles about 1100 RPM at stop signs after it warms up a bit, and runs great.

After thinking about this for a while, I probably need to turn my screws out to about 2 turns, to get more fuel flow.  I can be riding in first gear about 20 MPH when engine is cold, push the choke off, and the engine stumbles a bit, pull the choke lever, and stumble disappears and appears to run better.

Online madmtnmotors

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2023, 01:10:11 PM »
1.5 turns always worked for me. After a good vacuum sync my "Kates" (K8's) will idle smoothly all the way down to 850rpm. PD carbs can be fussy, I've gotten pretty good at working on them, but I do not like it and do so grudgingly!  ;)
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #10 on: May 29, 2023, 03:45:25 PM »
Update:  The valves did need adjusting, again.  Then, when I went to synch the carbs (again) they would NOT behave.  Then I noticed the linkage inside #3 was loose.  The set screw that attached the #3 throttle linkage to the throttle shaft running through the carbs was not tight.  Upon further investigation, it seems all four set screws were not tight.  So much for mister professional carb rebuilder guy. 

After tightening them, the carbs were suddenly synchable.  I do not have time to go for a ride right now, but I suspect it to behave better at stop lights.  Apparently, this bike won't idle well when the carb linkages are rattling around inside the carbs.  Imagine that.
1978 CB750K

Offline stocky

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2023, 08:52:46 PM »
Update:  The valves did need adjusting, again.  Then, when I went to synch the carbs (again) they would NOT behave.  Then I noticed the linkage inside #3 was loose.  The set screw that attached the #3 throttle linkage to the throttle shaft running through the carbs was not tight.  Upon further investigation, it seems all four set screws were not tight.  So much for mister professional carb rebuilder guy. 

After tightening them, the carbs were suddenly synchable.  I do not have time to go for a ride right now, but I suspect it to behave better at stop lights.  Apparently, this bike won't idle well when the carb linkages are rattling around inside the carbs.  Imagine that.

Glad you're getting somewhere. These bikes shouldn't take much to idle, could be rough but still idle nonetheless. Another reason why I try to do most of the work myself, not the first time I've heard of a carb professionally rebuilt to have issues.

Offline newday777

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2023, 01:58:15 AM »
Update:  The valves did need adjusting, again.  Then, when I went to synch the carbs (again) they would NOT behave.  Then I noticed the linkage inside #3 was loose.  The set screw that attached the #3 throttle linkage to the throttle shaft running through the carbs was not tight.  Upon further investigation, it seems all four set screws were not tight.  So much for mister professional carb rebuilder guy. 

After tightening them, the carbs were suddenly synchable.  I do not have time to go for a ride right now, but I suspect it to behave better at stop lights.  Apparently, this bike won't idle well when the carb linkages are rattling around inside the carbs.  Imagine that.
Well darn.  That wasn't good of them to leave them loose..... another reason to learn to do things yourself.
Did you just give the shop your carbs to rebuild or did you take the whole bike to them to rebuild then set them up and sync the carbs?
If just the carbs, that cutting costs on your part kinda leaves a door open for problems and them saying that they didn't mess up.
Did they put the rebuilt carbs on a test mule motor or bike to ensure they were correct? In the goldwing world, there was a renowned carb specialist who had set up a mule motor set up on a stand to fully test the carbs he rebuilt and they would be sent back to the owners synced and ready to install. He was the only one like that though and now he has passed. His son took up his mantel for a while until covid shut things down and he decided it wasn't for him to continue.
If you are going to have someone rebuild your carbs, it's best to let them do the whole job to ensure there aren't any issues and have some recourse if problems arise.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2023, 05:36:32 AM »
Well darn.  That wasn't good of them to leave them loose..... another reason to learn to do things yourself.

Yes, I have a strong preference for doing stuff myself and this story illustrates the best reason for that.  Verifying that the work was done properly.  At the time of the carb rebuild, I felt I lacked both the expertise and the time to do it.

Did you just give the shop your carbs to rebuild or did you take the whole bike to them to rebuild then set them up and sync the carbs?

Just the carbs.  If the shop had installed the carbs then this problem would have been resolved before I got the bike back.  Presumably.  The bike was not properly synched and it would NOT idle.  That is...I think it would have been impossible for this bike to idle while all four carb throttle mechanisms were rattling around inside the carbs, basically unattached to the throttle shaft.  I will likely ride it today, and I hope it will ride like a normal bike.  No more blipping and blipping the throttle at stop lights trying to keep it from dying. 

I will say that it has been running well off-idle.  The carb rebuilder guy did replace the acceleration pump rubber.  Throttle response is NOW.  I'd say this bike has the most immediate throttle response of any engine I have operated except for a 1972 Porsche 911 which had Mechanical Fuel Injection (MFI).  It feels like a tie.  Both are immediate.


If you are going to have someone rebuild your carbs, it's best to let them do the whole job to ensure there aren't any issues and have some recourse if problems arise.

That makes sense.
1978 CB750K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2023, 07:05:17 AM »
The 1978 models had to meet EPA emissions standards to be imported and sold.  The standard was low hydrocarbon emissions ( unburned fuel) at idle.  To achieve this, the exhaust had more back pressure, to retain some hydrocarbons to be reburned on the next fire cycle, and idle circuits that could be peak leaned.  The last thing on the tune up list was to set the pilot screws at their leanest settings, for minimum hydrocarbons out the tail pipe.  Exhaust sniffers were not common shop equipment in the day.  So Honda printed what they found this setting to be on most of their examples and put that in the tune up manual.  While the lean burn idle satisfied the EPA, Mechanical slide carbs Will go lean with every throttle lift to increase engine speed.   That is why accelerator pumps had to be added, to make throttle response acceptable.   And, why carbs had to be “anti tamper “ with pressed in pilot jets and limited availability of alternate sizes so owners couldn’t easily undo what the EPA mandated was best for the general public.

In the 550 manual, the final procedure was to use a finely sensitive tach, and turn in each IMS for peak RPM, while readjusting idle speed to lower the rpm back to spec minimum.  This apparently placated the EPA enough to allow importation.  But, those carbs had no accelerator pump, and throttle response suffered and was only just acceptable.  Some of the PD carbs had turn limiters on the idle mixture screws (IMS) as an “anti-tamper” compliance feature.  78 was the last import year for the 550.  Note that the PD carbs of the 650 had accelerator pumps, and later switched to CV type carbs that no direct connection of slides to throttle control.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2023, 07:57:01 AM »
I had heard that later SOHC 750s were designed to run very lean.  Nearly too lean.  Some say just plain too lean. 

Here is another good reason for DIY carb rebuild.  Without knowing, I suspect the jets are in fact replaceable.  They are pressed in, but I suspect they can be removed and replaced with jets that are not dysfunctionally lean.  If so, then the professional carb rebuild guy may have done this.  But I don't know since I did not do it.

Today I will ride.  If it continues to run great at mid and full throttle, and if it finally behaves at idle, then I will be satisfied.  Even not knowing what jets are in these carbs.  As they say...."If it ain't broken, then don't fix it."
1978 CB750K

Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2023, 08:06:02 AM »
Yesterday the bike idled better, but not perfect.  Idle seems to 'hunt' a bit in the sense that I can set it, then it changes at the next stop sign.  It behaves inconsistently.  Also, this bike will not idle at 1000 rpm without dying.  It'll do 1500, but not 1000.

I'd guess I have one or more air leaks.  But it does idle better now.  Progress is happening.
1978 CB750K

Offline TwoTired

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2023, 09:09:36 AM »
I have always relied on spark plug deposits to inform me of combustion conditions and needed mixture changes.  Guessing never worked well for me.

There are two fuel delivery circuits in these carbs and four fuel metering adjusters. (Six if you count the emulsion tubes)
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Rosinante

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2023, 10:42:42 AM »
Yes, there is good information at spark plug tips.  And yet, with our engines, they will basically always be wet.  Air and fuel are sucked in after ignition is cut.  Some say the best scenario is to operate the engine at the speed and load you want to evaluate, then cut the fuel injection pump.  For FI engines, obviously.  Still spark plugs can give good information even on carbureted engines. 

I do suspect one or more vacuum leaks likely between the carbs and the head.  But also, I think I may have a failed head gasket.  Compression on #4 is worrisome.  And there is other evidence.  Perhaps I will compile a question or two for the group.  I am very grateful for this forum and the advice and expertise I find here.
1978 CB750K

Offline DAZK7

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Re: K8 Idle Air Screw - How Many Turns
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2023, 11:49:29 AM »
My K8 needs the choke pulled on the first 1/2 mile of riding.  The first stop sign is about 1/2 mile away.  If I leave the choke pulled up it will idle about 3K RPM at the stop sign.  If I turn the choke off, it will not idle, it will stumble and the engine will cut off.

After riding about another mile I can turn the choke off and it idles about 1100 RPM at stop signs after it warms up a bit, and runs great.

After thinking about this for a while, I probably need to turn my screws out to about 2 turns, to get more fuel flow.  I can be riding in first gear about 20 MPH when engine is cold, push the choke off, and the engine stumbles a bit, pull the choke lever, and stumble disappears and appears to run better.



My 77 is exactly the same, these later models are very cold blooded.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 11:58:58 AM by DAZK7 »