Topic: I found the source of the mysterious ticking, and retrieved the nut

[Floshenbarnical]

I might be a dummy here. When you talk about removing the oil pan, you’re talking about the smaller cover that hides the oil pump etc, right?

I’ve taken it off and put my (very long) fingers into every nook and cranny I can reach with them. Are there any passages I might be able to get a flexi magnet into? I would go and check right now but I showered already and need to hit the hay.

[HondaMan]

Here's some pix of the bottom end where the nut may be, from an open set of cases. Yours will have the crankshaft in place and primary chains headed toward the back, but the little area near my finger(s) points to where the loose nut may be lying now. In the lower picture you can see the oil pan in this engine, which, if yours is removed, is where you'll be looking up from.

I have to be honest, mark, I’m a little stumped by these pictures. If the nut is there, how do I get it, it looks like I would have to go around several corners … what’s my insertion point?

In my first picture where I'm pointing at the bottom of the front of the case: you can see the [ribbed] oil pan below there, and your finger (or magnet) will be entering from below to get there. If the nut is loose the magnet will be able to nab it, but you might also find the magnet trying to stick to the crankshaft or the cam chain, both which are steel also. Everything else in the area is aluminum alloy, so the magnet will ignore that stuff. Since it wasn't in the oil pan, I'd guess it to be up there, instead.

On the top: can you actually remove the valve cover, or is it sort of just propped open so you can see here and there? If the nut came off the moving-up adjuster screw and hit the top (inside) of the valve cover, it could end up in between the 2 rocker shafts, in the hollow area between them. This is the oiling pool for the cam lobes, as they roll thru there each rev to get wetted with oil. If you can get your little magnet into that area, it will be the only steel thing in the 'pool', so it should also be able to nab it if up there, though I suspect it might keep trying to stick to the cam instead. (?)

[Floshenbarnical]

Thanks for responding. Is it actually possible to get it entirely off while the engine is in the frame? It’s propped so I can see here and there it it’s bloody awkward and tricky

So it could equally be up top in the cam area? Yikes, lol. I should be able to get the camera up there

[WideAWAKE]

I dropped (slipped out of greasy hands)  a nut in the top end of a motor a few years ago.

I bought a cheap Wi-Fi borescope with a light and magnet attached to it.

Fished it into the motor and was able to get pretty decent video. I was able to find the nut and pick it up with the magnet attached to the end.

You get the idea.

Cheap borescope. I’m sure all the cheap ones are pretty much the same.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364249790021?hash=item54cefab645:g:FssAAOSwxC5knsK2&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4ApEC3Hl1FH5dQkxLa%2BsjJFuOsOEpHwH1isGMvgH3QWnh0llau1GjX8JrcOLDC6tgRsbvWuAPsMUgRyy2r12LmHO71VNYu212NESfPtDOGjHOsedFa3fymqQjapVsAaqHVCeg%2FK%2BtIGX2KBeiU1JrDBhdWXbOUnIe3x0u3gQB8fSjeaGmLjV0P%2BFFsq%2B8UD2HqN4Nus7xEUAUaaNrUAmrwR01GvWLWMymrg8uu9%2F0LioW1ed1Cgbv9PYL%2BHMzeoW5S1ke8CHC5BLsn%2BdKcvLSQbptp8vQazUzev0xDx3Mpwq%7Ctkp%3ABFBMiNai4Kdi

[Floshenbarnical]

I dropped (slipped out of greasy hands)  a nut in the top end of a motor a few years ago.

I bought a cheap Wi-Fi borescope with a light and magnet attached to it.

Fished it into the motor and was able to get pretty decent video. I was able to find the nut and pick it up with the magnet attached to the end.

You get the idea.

Cheap borescope. I’m sure all the cheap ones are pretty much the same.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/364249790021?hash=item54cefab645:g:FssAAOSwxC5knsK2&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4ApEC3Hl1FH5dQkxLa%2BsjJFuOsOEpHwH1isGMvgH3QWnh0llau1GjX8JrcOLDC6tgRsbvWuAPsMUgRyy2r12LmHO71VNYu212NESfPtDOGjHOsedFa3fymqQjapVsAaqHVCeg%2FK%2BtIGX2KBeiU1JrDBhdWXbOUnIe3x0u3gQB8fSjeaGmLjV0P%2BFFsq%2B8UD2HqN4Nus7xEUAUaaNrUAmrwR01GvWLWMymrg8uu9%2F0LioW1ed1Cgbv9PYL%2BHMzeoW5S1ke8CHC5BLsn%2BdKcvLSQbptp8vQazUzev0xDx3Mpwq%7Ctkp%3ABFBMiNai4Kdi

Cheers mate. If it’s in the cam chain tunnel it’s going to be too tight to get a scope in there - I got one with a really skinny end and it’s just too tight. I hadn’t thought about getting a magnet on it though, if it’s on top of a rocker or something or in some sort of tunnel in my bottom end I should be able to retrieve it that way

[newday777]

Thanks for responding. Is it actually possible to get it entirely off while the engine is in the frame? It’s propped so I can see here and there it it’s bloody awkward and tricky

So it could equally be up top in the cam area? Yikes, lol. I should be able to get the camera up there

You won't get the cam cover off without cutting the frame and using the "Weldless Frame kit" that Frank came up with and Scottly took up his mantel, though they may be sold out by now.....
So otherwise, you have to remove the motor from the frame.
Frame kit thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,188090.0.html

Send Scott a PM to see if he still has the last one(last post in the thread he posted in late April of having one but a new member requested it, no stamp response by Scott so it might be available.
Scott's profile to PM
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=profile;u=15309

If not any left, send Shtonecb500  a PM to see if he'd left go of 1 of the 2 he bought...
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?action=profile;u=47745

[newday777]

You can go to Autozone and should be able to get one of their lender tool borescopes.

[PeWe]

The first thread when Frank started to make the frame kit.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,62832.msg1515491.html#msg1515491

I installed my kit then March 2014. I have lost the count of how many times I have had good use of the kit.
Head, cylinder repair/swap.
Cam changes, re-timing.

When engine neded to be pulled for crank and trans upgrade I removed head, cylinder and pistons while in frame.
Lifted rest of the engine alone with a strap.
Opened engine on the floor beside. Did what needed and back again.

Pistons, cylinder, head and cam timing dond in frame

There are good info here from several guys cutting their frames.
I have had really good use of my frame mod. Honda should have done that from the very beginning.

I opened as much as possible. I have only used Mikuni Smoothbore 29 and TMR carbs with pods.

Important to leave front tube for ign switch. Just so it fit plus half lenght of the frame kit clamp. Too long tubes left will be an obstacle for head and cylinder removal. Mine allow fitting of the bigger billet block. I removed cyl studs except for the 4 inner then which helped. Studs are Kibblewhite not glued in place.

Important when installing the kit, before cutting:
Drill the 4 holes  (2 on each side) and fit the triangle brackets before cutting the frame....



Here 970cc setup using stock cylinder so studs not removed.

#
#
My K2 had frame cut when I bought the frame. Ordered a kit from Frank to it.
I have removed the cylinder on it so it works. Fits stock carbs with airbox too.

[Floshenbarnical]

That’s a good idea, one for the winter maybe!

[PeWe]

It will help to fix something easier and much quicker without draining the oil...

[BenelliSEI]

I also found one in the front oil cavities, around the valve springs (the engine wasn’t missing any so who knows how long it was there!). Pull all the valve caps and keep fishing around the top end too. I have a very small magnet on the end of a telescopic pointer that works well…… if you are sure it was there, I agree with everyone else. You must find it. There are too many places you DON’T want it to end up.

[HondaMan]

I just disassembled a K6 engine, found a tappet nut pressed up against the oil pump's screen!

[Floshenbarnical]

I just disassembled a K6 engine, found a tappet nut pressed up against the oil pump's screen!

On the inside? I’ll pry mine off.

No joy in the bottom end with the camera. Wasn’t sitting on top of any surface I could see.

I’ll take off some more valve covers and continue to inspect the top end. My holed magnets did not arrive so I might go to town tomorrow and see what’s available. Basically the only place I haven’t checked so far is inside the chain tunnel from the top.

[HondaMan]

It will be hard to 'go down' the cam chain's tunnel from the top because the chain and tensioner really fill up the space. There's also 2 rollers on that cam chain's tensioner, which pretty well ensure the nut, if headed that direction, would get kicked down to the bottom pretty well.

The nut can't get inside the oil pump's screen. This one was sort of embedded into the bottom of the pump's screen where it is close to the bottom of the oil pan. It looked like it had been there a long time!

[Floshenbarnical]

I seem to recall you saying you once fished it out of there with a magnet and some fishing wire. That there is some sort of shelf part way down that it may be sat on.

I got underneath with the wand camera and explored every cranny it could possibly have gotten into. Other than being hung up somewhere underneath the valve cover where I can’t really see anything I’m not sure where else it could have gone other than down with the cam chain somewhere. And as you say, if it got flung down it would have turned up in the pan or hung up on top of a roller or a shelf. Unless it got flung down with such force it bounced off the oil pan up somewhere else, which is unlikely because I’ve been all up in there.

So tomorrow I’ll try to remove some more valve covers without stripping them, and get the camera in there

Stupid bikes lol

If I find it broken into pieces and recover all the pieces, what size/ thread nut is it? I solemnly promise not to turn the motor until I recover one nut or one nut’s worth of debris

It’s not likely that it would have been pulverized into flakes or something right? The steel is too solid

So perhaps it

[bryanj]

Its a special so buy the honda part

[BenelliSEI]

Pull all the caps. It’s up there.

[Floshenbarnical]

So does everyone think it’s unlikely that it’s in the chain atrium/ tunnel/ abyss, and is more likely to be caught up under the valve cover? It isn’t behind any of the springs, it isn’t in any of the oil ponds, it’s too large to fall down any of the oil return holes unless it’s in pieces. At least I’m pretty sure it is, I measured. If it is in pieces and has been sucked down the return holes, where would those pieces have ended up?

I’ll try pulling the caps but that’ll be easier said than done, a few of them have seized in place or something and the hex will strip if I try to undo them. I’ve tried penetrating grease and tapping with a a piece of wood wrapped in a rag. Not really sure what to do about that, I clearly need replacement valve caps but getting them off might be tricky. I must have overtightened them. Perhaps I need a left-hand drill bit apparatus.

Are there any disadvantages to purchasing stainless aftermarket caps? I’m wary of aluminum ones stripping again.

Thanks again everyone for being so patient while I try to find this bloody nut, it’s been nearly a week of poking around for it.

Where’s the best place to purchase a replacement and get it quickly? I want to have one on hand in case I end up finding bits of it.

[bryanj]

They would not have locked on if you had fitted new O rings, stainless, never seen them and if they exist you are more likely do damage the threads in the rocker cover.
You can order the nut from any Honda dealer and most on line will be similar

[Don R]

 Are there aftermarket stainless caps? After you remove the stock ones you may want to replace the o rings and lube them, so they don't need to be so tight.
 That nut can't be pounded into powder or flakes without destroying the rest of the motor, it's in there somewhere.

[robvangulik]

Are you using a SIXSIDED wrench trying to screw those caps off? With that and a long arm I've never had problems getting even the tightest caps off!

[PeWe]

Do not tighten too hard. You'll feel when it stop, not more.
Oil the o-ring before tightening.

[BenelliSEI]

So does everyone think it’s unlikely that it’s in the chain atrium/ tunnel/ abyss, and is more likely to be caught up under the valve cover? It isn’t behind any of the springs, it isn’t in any of the oil ponds, it’s too large to fall down any of the oil return holes unless it’s in pieces. At least I’m pretty sure it is, I measured. If it is in pieces and has been sucked down the return holes, where would those pieces have ended up?

I’ll try pulling the caps but that’ll be easier said than done, a few of them have seized in place or something and the hex will strip if I try to undo them. I’ve tried penetrating grease and tapping with a a piece of wood wrapped in a rag. Not really sure what to do about that, I clearly need replacement valve caps but getting them off might be tricky. I must have overtightened them. Perhaps I need a left-hand drill bit apparatus.

Are there any disadvantages to purchasing stainless aftermarket caps? I’m wary of aluminum ones stripping again.

Thanks again everyone for being so patient while I try to find this bloody nut, it’s been nearly a week of poking around for it.

Where’s the best place to purchase a replacement and get it quickly? I want to have one on hand in case I end up finding bits of it.

Did you try modifying a 17 mm socket, as described above? If you look closely at your sockets, you will notice they are all flared inwards, towards the truly flat sided part. Take a socket (six point ONLY) and grind the leading face off until you are down to the actual socket portion. A belt sander will work, but watch it. The socket will get HOT. Try and face it nice and square. Lightly smooth off the sharp edges with a file. They will come right off with a properly prepped tool. You can actually do the same to a wrench. The trick is to get the tool 100% down on the hex. The cap hex is unfortunately shaped with a bit of a flare at the bottom. Use a file and sharpen them up at the base if you have to (they are trash anyways?).

I have a bucket full of good used ones, will send you a bunch for postage if needed?

[HondaMan]

Tighten gently, with new O-rings. Then they can't back off. The O-rings, being old, are now flat and don't grip much.

I have a spare tappet adjuster nut, just found it in the bottom of this engine I'm rebuilding.
I also have about 100 O-rings for valve caps, can send you some. PM me your address?

There's nothing in this engine that could break up a tappet nut: it's one of the hardest parts in this engine, being tempered steel.

I've usually found them in either the middle of the lower crankcase (as described earlier) or else up on top, in one of the 'oil pools'. They can possibly lie on one edge, next to the valve spring, if on the front side of the engine.

There is/was a member here who lives in TX, whom I did some work for. He was able to remove the valve cover of one of his 750s (I think he had 3?) in the frame. He pulled all the engine mounting bolts (and drive chain) off and tilted the engine forward a little, and it happened to have Allen-head screws so they could be easily removed/reinstalled. He had lost one of these nuts inside and found it on the front side, next to one of the oil drains - which BTW are too small for the nut to fall down thru: the nuts is about 150% of the size of those holes.

[BenelliSEI]

P.S. Don’t heat them, that will just make then grow and tighten up. If you have the patience, hold an ice cube on top of one, for a few minutes, before you try it with a correctly prepped tool. In theory, that should reduce the OD of the threaded portion….