Author Topic: From Rundown & Ragged.. To A Mean, Clean & Shiny Machine - My 1977 Honda CB750 K  (Read 9343 times)

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Offline Ellz10

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Wow! A C5 gear failure like that is mighty rare: normally these break off the gear dogs on the side of the C2 next to it instead.
This is 2nd gear: the mainshaft couples to this broken gear in 2nd, which dogs into the C2 gear (the outboard one next to it) to power the countershaft to turn the final-drive gear.

I have seen only seen teeth break off like this in dragrace bikes. It usually came from shifting gears without the clutch at high engine speeds (they used to call it "speed shifting"), and the 750 in particular hates it because of the dry sump that lets the gears spin more freely - even with the Sump Thing this would still be true. I'm clueless, though, how it could happen during a simple startup?

Is it possible that the gears were already weak and then by having them undercut, that further diminished their integrity and when I took that first ride up and down my street it just gave out and snapped?

I can't think of any other scenario.
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'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Online scottly

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No, the gear teeth don't get undercut. The "dogs" on the side of the gear are what gets undercut, and that's not what failed. Have you looked to see if the snap-rings are seated in their grooves yet?
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Offline Ellz10

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No, the gear teeth don't get undercut. The "dogs" on the side of the gear are what gets undercut, and that's not what failed. Have you looked to see if the snap-rings are seated in their grooves yet?

I have not looked, no. I will have to look at Mark's book to fully understand where they should be and whatnot. I'll return with an answer!
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'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Online scottly

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The snap-rings, or circlips, are parts # 25 in the fiche that Den posted. There are 5 of them. Did you assemble the gears on the shafts, or did cyclex do it when they undercut the gears? If you do find any of the rings out of place, I suspect the trans went into 2 gears at once, locking the trans and snapping the teeth off the gears.
Have a read through this thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86429.0
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Online denward17

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No, the gear teeth don't get undercut. The "dogs" on the side of the gear are what gets undercut, and that's not what failed. Have you looked to see if the snap-rings are seated in their grooves yet?

I have not looked, no. I will have to look at Mark's book to fully understand where they should be and whatnot. I'll return with an answer!

Looking at the diagram above from CMSL, #25 is a circlip, should be a quantity of 5.  I think that is what Scottly is referring to.

Offline Ellz10

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The snap-rings, or circlips, are parts # 25 in the fiche that Den posted. There are 5 of them. Did you assemble the gears on the shafts, or did cyclex do it when they undercut the gears? If you do find any of the rings out of place, I suspect the trans went into 2 gears at once, locking the trans and snapping the teeth off the gears.
Have a read through this thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=86429.0

I didn't get a chance to look yet, I had something come up, but after just reading that thread, I'm starting to see ALOT of similarities. For instance, my bike also jumped out of gear while in idle, whilst kicking the side stand back and falling on me, pinning me between the bike and my wife's car behind me. I also heard a very loud crack when I went to shift into 2nd and once when I went to shift into 3rd. I'm going to look at those snap rings when I get home and see if I see anything amiss as I imagine I will!
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline HondaMan

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. After his report, several others here reported similar issues in the other places in the transmission, all due to the same issue: the sharp, flat side of the circlip(s) had been accidentally installed against a rotating gear or spacer. Be sure, when installing any gearset, that any rotating gear with a positioning spacer shim has the rounded edge of the shim/circlip toward the moving gear, only. The circlips are always ground flat on just one side, and for that reason.

Trouble is/was, Honda had moved their experienced SOHC4 assemblers to the CX500 line just about the time of the K4 bikes, which was when these troubles started showing up. This showed up in many ways on these bikes, often as assembly issues. Honda wasn't perfect, but boy, you oughtta see what Suzukis and Yamahas of this same era looked like... :(
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline Ellz10

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. After his report, several others here reported similar issues in the other places in the transmission, all due to the same issue: the sharp, flat side of the circlip(s) had been accidentally installed against a rotating gear or spacer. Be sure, when installing any gearset, that any rotating gear with a positioning spacer shim has the rounded edge of the shim/circlip toward the moving gear, only. The circlips are always ground flat on just one side, and for that reason.

Trouble is/was, Honda had moved their experienced SOHC4 assemblers to the CX500 line just about the time of the K4 bikes, which was when these troubles started showing up. This showed up in many ways on these bikes, often as assembly issues. Honda wasn't perfect, but boy, you oughtta see what Suzukis and Yamahas of this same era looked like... :(

I'm definitely going to be double checking every dang inch of all the gears now, after reading all this.

Hey Mark, I am curious about the issue I had with the countershaft bearing holder. I'm not sure if you had read that portion mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's pretty much the fact that the bike was stuck in gear and nothing would get it out of gear, that was the 2nd reason for pulling the motor. So when I went to remove the countershaft bearing holder, it would absolutely not budge at all. It took the better part of almost an hour to get it out and when it did the bearing was stuck on the shaft instead of in the holder. And once it was out, I was able to shift the gears and move the gear drum freely as it is supposed to.

Thoughts on this and why I couldn't shift because of it.
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline HondaMan

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. After his report, several others here reported similar issues in the other places in the transmission, all due to the same issue: the sharp, flat side of the circlip(s) had been accidentally installed against a rotating gear or spacer. Be sure, when installing any gearset, that any rotating gear with a positioning spacer shim has the rounded edge of the shim/circlip toward the moving gear, only. The circlips are always ground flat on just one side, and for that reason.

Trouble is/was, Honda had moved their experienced SOHC4 assemblers to the CX500 line just about the time of the K4 bikes, which was when these troubles started showing up. This showed up in many ways on these bikes, often as assembly issues. Honda wasn't perfect, but boy, you oughtta see what Suzukis and Yamahas of this same era looked like... :(

I'm definitely going to be double checking every dang inch of all the gears now, after reading all this.

Hey Mark, I am curious about the issue I had with the countershaft bearing holder. I'm not sure if you had read that portion mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's pretty much the fact that the bike was stuck in gear and nothing would get it out of gear, that was the 2nd reason for pulling the motor. So when I went to remove the countershaft bearing holder, it would absolutely not budge at all. It took the better part of almost an hour to get it out and when it did the bearing was stuck on the shaft instead of in the holder. And once it was out, I was able to shift the gears and move the gear drum freely as it is supposed to.

Thoughts on this and why I couldn't shift because of it.

Interesting! It might be a clue, too, but you'll have to play Batman here to track it...
First thought: if someone [before you got the bike] had attempted to change the C2 gears in the engine because they wanted the wider step-ratio of the earlier engines, but didn't change BOTH gears (mainshaft AND countershaft) gears), then those 2 gears would be placed about 2mm closer to the tooth-roots of the teeth on the gears. This would make for quite the bind when the tips of the teeth engaged the valleys of the opposing gear. Where I'm going with this (and the new-to-me info that you had the tranny back-cut) is: could one of the gears on one of the shafts (countershaft in this case) be from an earlier engine, by accident? This could put the tips of the larger gear's teeth deep and hard into the valleys of the older gear on the opposite shaft. That would cause the shafts to bind tooth-on-valley in the offending gears when the countershaft bearing is tightened into place. (Reason I know this? Assembling 1 engine from several boxes of "F" and "K" parts, without benefit of a parts manual anywhere near-at-hand, long, long ago - and I/we didn't yet know that the tranny gears had changed between the two engine types...).

Second thought: could the countershaft bearing retainer perchance be from another engine? Honda changed the last 3 digits of this part's number with the F2/K7 engine. At the time I thought it was due to new molds or something, as the parts were much better defined beginning with the F2/K7 engines. I haven't had the opportunity to put them side-by-side to see if there might be something like a depth difference, or the like.

To sleuth this point: not easy, but do-able (I've done it) you put the bearing housing in place with at least 2 screws, then look up thru the oil pan's opening (with magic flashlights and little dental mirrors) to see if you can find dogs-and-slots touching when the tranny is supposed to be in Neutral. In this one, look at those gears that fought each other. If even one dog is touching the inner face of the slotted groove of its mate when in Neutral, then either the dogged gear is wrong (one of the 4 that is involved at that moment) or the slotted gear is out-of-place in space. This can be (in some cases and gears) the slotted one is one backward, or the little snapring-and-spacer thingies are not arranged in the proper order on the shaft.

Third thought: involving those snaprings and spacers - there are also shims used on the mainshaft (not related directly to this shaft's length) on the far side of the engine from here, used to space the mainshaft's gears properly over the countershaft's gears: if those shims or the snapring-spacer sets are not correct then the countershaft's gears' dogs could conceivably become too close to their adjacent gears' slots, making them just barely touch each other when they are supposed to be disengaged. Then, since this is a constant-mesh (somewhere) gearbox, this locks 2 gears on the same shaft into the other shaft, which can definitely make teeth change shape mighty quick-like.

I've been puzzling over this one (wish I was there) a bunch lately. It just "feels" like somewhere the dogs of a gear are too close to the slots of an adjacent gear that is not supposed to be engaged at the time. This can "fit" with the countershaft bearing causing jamming of the countershaft upon tightening if the mis-sequence of the spacer (i.e., it is on the wrong side of the snapring) that is next to the offending gear is pressing that gear against the snapring (or adjacent gear), effectively making the stack-up length of the gearset about 1mm too long. The clearance on the end of the countershaft where it sits against the removable bearing is less than 1mm, so if one of those spacers is wrong, it could explain all 3 symptoms at once? To this end, check the assembled order of the snaprings, spacers, and the orintation of the 2nd gear in from the inner end of the countershaft: it can be in backward, which makes it drag against the first gear that is closest to the center bearing that supports this countershaft. This, too, will push the rest of those gears toward the [removable] bearing in that housing.

See if the bearing will stay in the countershaft's housing: it is supposed to be a 0.001"/0.02mm interference fit, which is: heat up the housing to 100-120 degrees and put the bearing in the freezer for about 10 minutes, then see if the bearing will drop right in. After they cool off together, the bearing should be captured enough that you can't shake it out. If the housing is somehow damaged, twisted, bent (or something) then it will need to be replaced. The most common thing I've seen here is: someone dinged up the inner face of the housing when removing the bearing (simple heat works fine) and then forced the bearing back in, which distorts the housing and tilts the bearing a tiny bit. If it is a tight bearing it will stick or rotate with drag: the easiest 'fix' for this is either an extra-clearance bearing (like the one in the middle of the crankcase) or a new housing.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Online scottly

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. (
Mark, the thread from 2011 I posted the link to must be what you are thinking of, and it was a K7 that went into gear while doing a compression test that fell on me, pining me against the wall of my garage. I still have a half-round scar on my knee from the bare end of the handlebar digging into it. :o
« Last Edit: July 28, 2023, 09:56:08 PM by scottly »
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Online scottly

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when I went to remove the countershaft bearing holder, it would absolutely not budge at all. It took the better part of almost an hour to get it out and when it did the bearing was stuck on the shaft instead of in the holder. And once it was out, I was able to shift the gears and move the gear drum freely as it is supposed to.

Thoughts on this and why I couldn't shift because of it.
The gears were jammed together, which would have tried to force the two trans shafts apart. Once you removed the bearing holder, the end of the shaft was allowed to move away from the other shaft, releasing the pressure, and allowing the gears to shift.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Ellz10

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. After his report, several others here reported similar issues in the other places in the transmission, all due to the same issue: the sharp, flat side of the circlip(s) had been accidentally installed against a rotating gear or spacer. Be sure, when installing any gearset, that any rotating gear with a positioning spacer shim has the rounded edge of the shim/circlip toward the moving gear, only. The circlips are always ground flat on just one side, and for that reason.

Trouble is/was, Honda had moved their experienced SOHC4 assemblers to the CX500 line just about the time of the K4 bikes, which was when these troubles started showing up. This showed up in many ways on these bikes, often as assembly issues. Honda wasn't perfect, but boy, you oughtta see what Suzukis and Yamahas of this same era looked like... :(

I'm definitely going to be double checking every dang inch of all the gears now, after reading all this.

Hey Mark, I am curious about the issue I had with the countershaft bearing holder. I'm not sure if you had read that portion mentioned earlier in this thread, but it's pretty much the fact that the bike was stuck in gear and nothing would get it out of gear, that was the 2nd reason for pulling the motor. So when I went to remove the countershaft bearing holder, it would absolutely not budge at all. It took the better part of almost an hour to get it out and when it did the bearing was stuck on the shaft instead of in the holder. And once it was out, I was able to shift the gears and move the gear drum freely as it is supposed to.

Thoughts on this and why I couldn't shift because of it.

Interesting! It might be a clue, too, but you'll have to play Batman here to track it...
First thought: if someone [before you got the bike] had attempted to change the C2 gears in the engine because they wanted the wider step-ratio of the earlier engines, but didn't change BOTH gears (mainshaft AND countershaft) gears), then those 2 gears would be placed about 2mm closer to the tooth-roots of the teeth on the gears. This would make for quite the bind when the tips of the teeth engaged the valleys of the opposing gear. Where I'm going with this (and the new-to-me info that you had the tranny back-cut) is: could one of the gears on one of the shafts (countershaft in this case) be from an earlier engine, by accident? This could put the tips of the larger gear's teeth deep and hard into the valleys of the older gear on the opposite shaft. That would cause the shafts to bind tooth-on-valley in the offending gears when the countershaft bearing is tightened into place. (Reason I know this? Assembling 1 engine from several boxes of "F" and "K" parts, without benefit of a parts manual anywhere near-at-hand, long, long ago - and I/we didn't yet know that the tranny gears had changed between the two engine types...).

Second thought: could the countershaft bearing retainer perchance be from another engine? Honda changed the last 3 digits of this part's number with the F2/K7 engine. At the time I thought it was due to new molds or something, as the parts were much better defined beginning with the F2/K7 engines. I haven't had the opportunity to put them side-by-side to see if there might be something like a depth difference, or the like.

To sleuth this point: not easy, but do-able (I've done it) you put the bearing housing in place with at least 2 screws, then look up thru the oil pan's opening (with magic flashlights and little dental mirrors) to see if you can find dogs-and-slots touching when the tranny is supposed to be in Neutral. In this one, look at those gears that fought each other. If even one dog is touching the inner face of the slotted groove of its mate when in Neutral, then either the dogged gear is wrong (one of the 4 that is involved at that moment) or the slotted gear is out-of-place in space. This can be (in some cases and gears) the slotted one is one backward, or the little snapring-and-spacer thingies are not arranged in the proper order on the shaft.

Third thought: involving those snaprings and spacers - there are also shims used on the mainshaft (not related directly to this shaft's length) on the far side of the engine from here, used to space the mainshaft's gears properly over the countershaft's gears: if those shims or the snapring-spacer sets are not correct then the countershaft's gears' dogs could conceivably become too close to their adjacent gears' slots, making them just barely touch each other when they are supposed to be disengaged. Then, since this is a constant-mesh (somewhere) gearbox, this locks 2 gears on the same shaft into the other shaft, which can definitely make teeth change shape mighty quick-like.

I've been puzzling over this one (wish I was there) a bunch lately. It just "feels" like somewhere the dogs of a gear are too close to the slots of an adjacent gear that is not supposed to be engaged at the time. This can "fit" with the countershaft bearing causing jamming of the countershaft upon tightening if the mis-sequence of the spacer (i.e., it is on the wrong side of the snapring) that is next to the offending gear is pressing that gear against the snapring (or adjacent gear), effectively making the stack-up length of the gearset about 1mm too long. The clearance on the end of the countershaft where it sits against the removable bearing is less than 1mm, so if one of those spacers is wrong, it could explain all 3 symptoms at once? To this end, check the assembled order of the snaprings, spacers, and the orintation of the 2nd gear in from the inner end of the countershaft: it can be in backward, which makes it drag against the first gear that is closest to the center bearing that supports this countershaft. This, too, will push the rest of those gears toward the [removable] bearing in that housing.

See if the bearing will stay in the countershaft's housing: it is supposed to be a 0.001"/0.02mm interference fit, which is: heat up the housing to 100-120 degrees and put the bearing in the freezer for about 10 minutes, then see if the bearing will drop right in. After they cool off together, the bearing should be captured enough that you can't shake it out. If the housing is somehow damaged, twisted, bent (or something) then it will need to be replaced. The most common thing I've seen here is: someone dinged up the inner face of the housing when removing the bearing (simple heat works fine) and then forced the bearing back in, which distorts the housing and tilts the bearing a tiny bit. If it is a tight bearing it will stick or rotate with drag: the easiest 'fix' for this is either an extra-clearance bearing (like the one in the middle of the crankcase) or a new housing.

So I can't exactly tell if those 2 gears are the correct ones or not. I also will say that i remember when I installed the bearing into the holder that it didn't sit in there very well, so it is possible it's not the correct year holder. I found a NOS one for a 1977/78 on eBay for $100, I might just grab that.

All this being said, the reason why I suggested sending the whole assembly to you is that you'd have a much better grasp of what's going on and what to look for. I just don't know if you have the time for it currently. At this point, I'd pay you whatever to be able to help get these gears in the correct order so I can get this baby back on the road!


when I went to remove the countershaft bearing holder, it would absolutely not budge at all. It took the better part of almost an hour to get it out and when it did the bearing was stuck on the shaft instead of in the holder. And once it was out, I was able to shift the gears and move the gear drum freely as it is supposed to.

Thoughts on this and why I couldn't shift because of it.
The gears were jammed together, which would have tried to force the two trans shafts apart. Once you removed the bearing holder, the end of the shaft was allowed to move away from the other shaft, releasing the pressure, and allowing the gears to shift.

See that's the same thing that happened to me!
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline HondaMan

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There are also several accounts in the forums of a mis-assembled circlip: they have a rounded side and a flat side, and must be installed with the rounded side toward the moving gear that it might be contacting. Long ago one of our members had a nice K5 that would drop into gear if parked idling on the sidestand: it turned out that the factory (Honda) had installed it with the flat side toward the C5 (#21, #25 and #8 in the diagram above) and the circlip had climbed out of the groove, letting the C2 slide over into the dogs of C5. (
Mark, the thread from 2011 I posted the link to must be what you are thinking of, and it was a K7 that went into gear while doing a compression test that fell on me, pining me against the wall of my garage. I still have a half-round scar on my knee from the bare end of the handlebar digging into it. :o
That's certainly one of them, Scottly! Being under a 500+ lb bike really sucks, don't it? Been there. too. :(

Actually, now that I remember it, we (me & the ex) were on a very muddy road (in the rain) with 100+ lbs camping gear on the sissy bar when the bike just slid out from under us, to the right (high-crowned road). My left leg ended up under the carbs with the choke lever trying to punch a hole in my thigh, but was lucky enough the #1 pipe was against my boot and not my pants! My foot was in a hole in the road (talk about the odds of that?), so I was trapped, but not seriously hurting. After about 30 seconds, the rear of the bike slid down the road's crown about a foot as my ex stepped off of it and the bike 'spun' right off my leg by itself!

Another one with a 'bad' circlip assembly was Gammaflat's bike. It finally lifted the backward circlip by C5 while on the sidestand, too. Every time he had it on the sidestand running, it clunked, and finally I think it fell into gear. It's a K4/5/6 era bike, too. I have since heard of it on 2 other CB750s, both 1975 era.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 06:14:50 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline HondaMan

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All this makes me wonder: when you get your new gearset(s), count the number of teeth on the broken gears in the current set, then those in the new set(s). I'll have to go and look, but the tooth count changed on these gears in the later gearboxes by a couple of teeth. Both the gears in the pair will be different, but to the uninitiated, they look the same. Here, I'm musing whether someone might have accidentally swapped one of your gears with someone else's same-looking (but different year and teeth) gear when the gearset was being back-cut? Stranger things have happened to my parts when in other people's shops, once in a while.

Specifically: if the gear on the mainshaft (that broke) was from a late engine it will be smaller than the one from an early engine, while vice-versa for the countershaft. Check this against the ones in the new tranny(s) that you bought to make sure they have the same tooth count as in your engine. If not, I'm wondering if one of your gears might have gotten accidentally swapped with another tranny at the back-cutting shop. Having worked in a machine shop(s) myself, I have seen this sort of work moving from one workstation to another in trays/boxes/whatever-container and the parts got spilled out onto a worktable and mixed with others by accident. Since the early and later gears will fit onto the shafts without issue, it's a remote, but possible, scenario?

Another one that comes to mind with this particular gear: in the late K5/6 series and in the F2/3 for sure (which shares this tranny with the K7/8) engines the bushing inside the C2 gear was sometimes a flanged insert bushing made of cast iron, or was a combination of a bronze insert inside the gear plus a separate toothed washer (either brass or iron) that simulated this flange - both abutted the snapring. If BOTH the flanged bushing (insert) AND the toothed washer was installed on the shaft, then the C5 gear next to the C2 gear will be pushed about 1.25mm too far outboard toward that removeable countershaft bearing. If this happens and the bearing housing is torqued in using the 4 nice flathead screws, the countershaft gears will bind together for lack of clearance between them, creating lots of drag, because there is about 0.7mm of total 'slop' between all the gears on the countershaft and the 2 bearings this shaft rides in. Again, this presupposes something got "mixed up" at the shop where the gears were back-cut, so it's a pretty remote possibility, but one that might fit this situation?

Yes, these are rabbit-holes in my head, but oddly this is what years of building automation in factories for almost 40 years does to one's mind: this is the sort of thing that shuts down whole factories from time to time. It is politely called "human error" or "stupid maintenance tech" scenarios...
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Online scottly

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Zach, have you verified if the snap rings are in their grooves yet? The symptoms are a smoking gun pointing at the snap rings, so I wouldn't even consider mismatched gears unless the rings are in place.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline newday777

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All this makes me wonder: when you get your new gearset(s), count the number of teeth on the broken gears in the current set, then those in the new set(s). I'll have to go and look, but the tooth count changed on these gears in the later gearboxes by a couple of teeth. Both the gears in the pair will be different, but to the uninitiated, they look the same. Here, I'm musing whether someone might have accidentally swapped one of your gears with someone else's same-looking (but different year and teeth) gear when the gearset was being back-cut? Stranger things have happened to my parts when in other people's shops, once in a while.

Specifically: if the gear on the mainshaft (that broke) was from a late engine it will be smaller than the one from an early engine, while vice-versa for the countershaft. Check this against the ones in the new tranny(s) that you bought to make sure they have the same tooth count as in your engine. If not, I'm wondering if one of your gears might have gotten accidentally swapped with another tranny at the back-cutting shop. Having worked in a machine shop(s) myself, I have seen this sort of work moving from one workstation to another in trays/boxes/whatever-container and the parts got spilled out onto a worktable and mixed with others by accident. Since the early and later gears will fit onto the shafts without issue, it's a remote, but possible, scenario?

Another one that comes to mind with this particular gear: in the late K5/6 series and in the F2/3 for sure (which shares this tranny with the K7/8) engines the bushing inside the C2 gear was sometimes a flanged insert bushing made of cast iron, or was a combination of a bronze insert inside the gear plus a separate toothed washer (either brass or iron) that simulated this flange - both abutted the snapring. If BOTH the flanged bushing (insert) AND the toothed washer was installed on the shaft, then the C5 gear next to the C2 gear will be pushed about 1.25mm too far outboard toward that removeable countershaft bearing. If this happens and the bearing housing is torqued in using the 4 nice flathead screws, the countershaft gears will bind together for lack of clearance between them, creating lots of drag, because there is about 0.7mm of total 'slop' between all the gears on the countershaft and the 2 bearings this shaft rides in. Again, this presupposes something got "mixed up" at the shop where the gears were back-cut, so it's a pretty remote possibility, but one that might fit this situation?

Yes, these are rabbit-holes in my head, but oddly this is what years of building automation in factories for almost 40 years does to one's mind: this is the sort of thing that shuts down whole factories from time to time. It is politely called "human error" or "stupid maintenance tech" scenarios...

Anyone else not able to open the attachment to see the picture of the K6 tranny odg link? It downloads but doesn't open on my phone.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2023, 02:59:41 AM by newday777 »
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Online denward17

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I opened it with Microsoft Word.

Offline newday777

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I opened it with Microsoft Word.
On your computer or phone?
If phone, take a screenshot please
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Online denward17

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I opened it with Microsoft Word.
On your computer or phone?
If phone, take a screenshot please

Computer....

Offline HondaMan

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    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Sorry, that shot came out of Linux and LibreOffice's Picture Manager. I forget to translate them, sometimes.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: SOHC4shop.com  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline newday777

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Sorry, that shot came out of Linux and LibreOffice's Picture Manager. I forget to translate them, sometimes.
So you can translate it so it shows?
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Ellz10

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Mark, I believe you may be right in regards to the countershaft gears binding.

So I've tried everything I can think of and I CANNOT get that first gear to come out so that I can remove the assembly. It's lodged in there something fierce.

Not only that, but the top countershaft gear seems to be split in 2 pieces??
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline Ellz10

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So I was able to remove the assembly, and upon inspection, none of the snaprings seem to be out of place nor can I see anything wrong, but I have an obvious untrained eye so Mark or anyone else, if you see something off, please don't hesitate to say something!
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline Ellz10

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Well I think I may have found the problem and yes it does involve a snap ring.

I didn't see it before, but once I slid the gears over and looked more closely as well as comparing every bit of my gears to the assembly that came in the mail today off a 1978, I realize the difference and the problem. One of the snaprings jumped out of its groove and lodged itself into the side of that gear (3rd I believe).

I'm guessing that could very well be the reason behind the teeth shearing off and locking the bike in place, unable to shift out of gear?
« Last Edit: August 01, 2023, 04:59:47 PM by Ellz10 »
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new

Offline Ellz10

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So tonight I bought all new thrust washers and snaprings/circlips and I'm going to replace all mine correctly just to be safe.

I'll be posting pics of the new transmission assembly I got later.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2023, 03:52:51 PM by Ellz10 »
Thankful for everyone on this forum. Grateful to continue to learn so much.



'77 K7 - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193043.msg2251436/topicseen.html#new