Author Topic: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?  (Read 366 times)

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Offline ryanGDanderson

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Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« on: July 15, 2023, 08:17:20 PM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible. I also want to directly wire groundings back to the battery and only rely on engine/frame grounding when necessary (starter, oil pressure switch, etc). So when wiring the new switches, would it better to 1) power the devices and ground the switches, or 2) power the switches and ground the devices? I've read about grounds needed smaller gauge wires than switched power, and there's not much room inside the switch itself. I googled for a while and couldn't find an answer on this forum, but if there is one already then I apologize for the double post. 1975 CB750F if it matters.

Thank you for your time!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2023, 09:04:39 PM »
The main thing: make sure any powered wires get their power through a fuse somewhere. This is vital, especially if you have not wired a vehicle before, as road vibration can chew through the wire insulation in a week, making a short. If that happens, the power needs to go away, or else the bike might!

The wire you send to a switch and the wire that carries that power away from it (or the device it powers) must be the same size, or else the return wire (to ground) bigger. There is equal current in both of those wires: it doesn't go anywhere else. The wire from the switch, then out of that switch to the device, must be large enough to carry the current on a 150 degree day, because it can get that hot on the bike.

Generally speaking, the smallest wire you should use on a bike, to power anything but the starter, should not be smaller than 20 AWG size with the exception of LEDs or the little lightbulbs in the instruments: those can work fine with 24 AWG or 22 AWG size, for both the wire to, and from, the device. The coils need NO LESS than 22 AWG power wires to & from them them: 18 or 20 AWG is better. For the headlight: check the wattage of it, then divide that number by 12 (volts) to find the current, and size accordingly: the typical 60 AWG headlight then uses [60 / 12] = 5 amps: all 3 wires to it must be at least 20 AWG for this much current, and 18 AWG will make it last longer and run cooler.

The frame makes a poor ground (ask any Harley or vintage British bike rider about that...) but it also MUST be grounded or the sparkplugs won't work very well. Battery Ground must go to the top left rear engine bolster on the 750 for best results, in between the engine and the frame, with both cleaned of paint at that site.

When I wire a [semi] custom bike, I make all the Green Ground wires 16 AWG because that is nearly 150% of their needed value, and everything works better for it. Then the feeder wires to every/any thing can be smaller, and you'll be in good shape in any situation.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 01:59:11 PM by HondaMan »
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2023, 09:52:02 PM »
Using the switches to turn things on and off with relays would keep the switch as a low current switch leading to long life for the switch and allow you to run smaller gauge wires to the switches.
Small automotive relays from good manufacturer are available if you want to find a dry place in headlight bucket or another dry spot for them ...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline willbird

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2023, 08:31:13 AM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible. I also want to directly wire groundings back to the battery and only rely on engine/frame grounding when necessary (starter, oil pressure switch, etc). So when wiring the new switches, would it better to 1) power the devices and ground the switches, or 2) power the switches and ground the devices? I've read about grounds needed smaller gauge wires than switched power, and there's not much room inside the switch itself. I googled for a while and couldn't find an answer on this forum, but if there is one already then I apologize for the double post. 1975 CB750F if it matters.

Thank you for your time!

There may be some confusion when it comes to wire gauges for grounds. In Industrial wiring ground is never a "current carrying conductor"...our grounds in Industrial wiring are never part of the circuit. So if the ground is only there to carry current if there is a short TO ground it can be a smaller gauge. We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Every wire in a normal circuit carries the same current so they should be sized accordingly.

In automotive which covers our bikes generally "ground" IS a current carrying conductor.


Bill


Offline ryanGDanderson

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2023, 12:03:23 PM »
HondaMan thank you for the extremely detailed response and insight, your effort answered my question and so much more. I profiled the current draws of each circuit activated per handlebar button to ensure I have the min safe wire gauges.

RAFster122s thank you for bring relays to my attention. After reading that I may end up using one now for the headlight and the horn once I have everything wired up and safety-checked.

willbird thank you for the background terminology. I knew there were differences in automotive vs industrial but nothing that detailed, I'm much smarter now after reading that.

I believe the answer to my initial question is that there is no difference, and thank you all for the incredible information on top.

Ryan

Offline newday777

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2023, 03:14:02 PM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible. I also want to directly wire groundings back to the battery and only rely on engine/frame grounding when necessary (starter, oil pressure switch, etc). So when wiring the new switches, would it better to 1) power the devices and ground the switches, or 2) power the switches and ground the devices? I've read about grounds needed smaller gauge wires than switched power, and there's not much room inside the switch itself. I googled for a while and couldn't find an answer on this forum, but if there is one already then I apologize for the double post. 1975 CB750F if it matters.

Thank you for your time!

There may be some confusion when it comes to wire gauges for grounds. In Industrial wiring ground is never a "current carrying conductor"...our grounds in Industrial wiring are never part of the circuit. So if the ground is only there to carry current if there is a short TO ground it can be a smaller gauge. We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Every wire in a normal circuit carries the same current so they should be sized accordingly.

In automotive which covers our bikes generally "ground" IS a current carrying conductor.


Bill

Yes but you had a neutral line that isn't present on these bikes.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline calj737

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2023, 04:18:15 PM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible.
Hmmm. I understand your desire to keep it simple, BUT, swapping to momentary switches is actually made much easier with an mUnit. Not required certainly, but you could wire your entire bike from scratch in less than a day with a half full bag of competence.

If you review the stock diagram, you’ll see switched power runs through the controls to the component. If you opt to do it your way, use some relays, use high quality connectors, and make a color diagram that transfers with the bike. I’d use 10AWG for the battery ground to “ground bar” where your switches all ground to. You’ll struggle getting all controls to terminate on the small posts and in truth it’s not needed.

As an aside: the beauty of the mUnit relative to your objective is that the control sends a ground to the mUnit and the mUnit transfers power across it directly to the component. All power routed are clear, fused, and solid state. Just saying….
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2023, 04:21:15 PM »
Calj knows what he is saying...it is an elegant modern solution
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline willbird

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2023, 03:36:23 AM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible. I also want to directly wire groundings back to the battery and only rely on engine/frame grounding when necessary (starter, oil pressure switch, etc). So when wiring the new switches, would it better to 1) power the devices and ground the switches, or 2) power the switches and ground the devices? I've read about grounds needed smaller gauge wires than switched power, and there's not much room inside the switch itself. I googled for a while and couldn't find an answer on this forum, but if there is one already then I apologize for the double post. 1975 CB750F if it matters.

Thank you for your time!

There may be some confusion when it comes to wire gauges for grounds. In Industrial wiring ground is never a "current carrying conductor"...our grounds in Industrial wiring are never part of the circuit. So if the ground is only there to carry current if there is a short TO ground it can be a smaller gauge. We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Every wire in a normal circuit carries the same current so they should be sized accordingly.

In automotive which covers our bikes generally "ground" IS a current carrying conductor.


Bill

Yes but you had a neutral line that isn't present on these bikes.

Which I clearly stated.
Quote
We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Bill

Offline newday777

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Re: Simple switches, activate via ground or power?
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2023, 03:59:53 AM »
I'm installing some sweet Motone switches, latching and momentary, but only "on" or "off" in both cases. No m unit because I want to keep the bike as "simple" as possible. I also want to directly wire groundings back to the battery and only rely on engine/frame grounding when necessary (starter, oil pressure switch, etc). So when wiring the new switches, would it better to 1) power the devices and ground the switches, or 2) power the switches and ground the devices? I've read about grounds needed smaller gauge wires than switched power, and there's not much room inside the switch itself. I googled for a while and couldn't find an answer on this forum, but if there is one already then I apologize for the double post. 1975 CB750F if it matters.

Thank you for your time!

There may be some confusion when it comes to wire gauges for grounds. In Industrial wiring ground is never a "current carrying conductor"...our grounds in Industrial wiring are never part of the circuit. So if the ground is only there to carry current if there is a short TO ground it can be a smaller gauge. We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Every wire in a normal circuit carries the same current so they should be sized accordingly.

In automotive which covers our bikes generally "ground" IS a current carrying conductor.


Bill

Yes but you had a neutral line that isn't present on these bikes.

Which I clearly stated.
Quote
We use "neutral" and "common" to carry current in AC and DC circuits.

Bill
Commercial high volt current is different from the 2 wire 12 volt systems in that the ground completes the circuit with the load going into the ground circuit and will overload the ground wires if too much load(read added lights, accessories, ect) for the wire size. I've seen the results of others unknowingly overloading small wire system on bikes.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A