Topic: Proper Oil

[Tracksnblades1]

The bike is a 1978 CB750K.

Thanks to all.  This helps a LOT!

FWIW, Valvoline Racing 20w50 is in the bike right now, and the clutch sometimes misbehaves.  It never seems to slip without me touching the clutch lever, but ANY tension on the clutch cable will cause slippage.  I'd guess I could not wheelie this thing using the time-honored method of popping the clutch but I'm not going to try.  Those days are over for me.

Are you sure your clutch and cable are both adjusted correctly?

 Sometimes an improper adjusted clutch can remove the necessary free play and worse impart some disengagement preload on the clutch springs. Exhibiting the condition you described of slipping with just the slightest touch.

This forum has downloadable service manuals that covers your entire 78. Including the proper clutch adjustments. It also has a good explanation of the pressurized, scavenged, and drain oil circulation and relief valves and filter bypasses.

I not sure rereading your questions if your research included the Honda service manual. I’m surprised your query research of starting of engine with no engine oil didn’t net the same advise as posted.


+1 on “ANY” is better than no oil. While I agree with 2tired on contaminated oil, it would surprise me however if it wasn’t still better than nothing.

H*ll I still fill the spin on oil filters with oil prior to use regardless of size if their mounting position allows.

As far as removing the spark plugs after each oil change and before starting…., some manufacturers of big older engines  that had sit for extended period of time recommended cranking the engine over with the fuel or ignition shut off until engine oil pressure was indicated. May work the same for your 78 without risking any spark plug threads  or something falling in the hole unnoticed. Compression is not nearly the load as combustion…

[Tracksnblades1]

Considering it should be changed every 1500 miles i do not see the point of the expensive oils as long as the one you buy meets or exceeds the original Honda spec for the year and model

It would be interesting to do an oil analysis and see what is going on at 1500 miles. That interval was established in the 1960's with oils far inferior to what we have today.

Bill

I’m pretty sure my son’s air cooled 2014 Honda CB1100 operator manual states 6,000 kilometers 10w-30 Honda GN4 oil.  By 2015 Honda changed the oil service interval to 12,000 kilometers on the same engine…..just one of the advantages of fuel injection over 45 year old carburetors with manual chokes…

Equally interesting Honda used the same crankshaft oil clearances on the later air cooled CB1100 that they used on their early ones as well as the old sohc750s.

The manual choke on my bike is on for about 30 seconds :-).

Bill

Yeh, I’m not sure how old you are bill. The choke manual or automatic and the carb used to be the source of the soot that made car engine oil black. Similar to the diesel particulate soot still in their oil. The unaltered modern fuel injection pretty much ended black oil between oil changes.

The old manual choke is a subjective tool. 30 seconds for you, 20 for him, 45 for another verses the O2 sensor with a baud rate finally capable…

[Rosinante]

*  I was able to find proper wet clutch oil at the auto parts store.  Many thanks to all.  This oil says nothing about ZDDP, so I may also include some additive for that, like the Lucas stuff mentioned here.

*  Yes, it is a good idea to fill the cannister-type oil filters with oil and place them on the bench for a couple of minutes.  The oil actually gets soaked up by the filter media inside the filter.  A little dribbles out when the canister is turned horizontally, but not much.  Most of it has been soaked up.  Which is a good thing.  But this still does not prevent the system from having zero oil pressure for at least the first few seconds after startup.

*  When I button up this bike with oil in the tank, I plan to run the starter with spark plugs removed until the oil light goes off.  Then install plugs and fire it up.  This should prevent 1000 psi cylinders from pounding the rod bearings at a rate of 50 revolutions per second (3000 rpm, which the fast idle mechanism creates under choke).  Again, that pounding is pretty much what happens when we change oil in a motor without pressurizing the oil galleys before startup.

[BenelliSEI]

For years I ran an “Accusump” system on my wet sump Coventry Climax FWB motor in a Lotus Eleven. A small oil resevoir is piped with an “T” into the system. It can be isolated with a globe valve. Used it to pressurize the oil system before every start up and it also fed the oil pump if the pick up ever went dry in long, high speed corners. At the end of every race, I’d close off the tank so it was loaded for the next cold start. Brilliant system.

[willbird]

Considering it should be changed every 1500 miles i do not see the point of the expensive oils as long as the one you buy meets or exceeds the original Honda spec for the year and model

It would be interesting to do an oil analysis and see what is going on at 1500 miles. That interval was established in the 1960's with oils far inferior to what we have today.

Bill

I’m pretty sure my son’s air cooled 2014 Honda CB1100 operator manual states 6,000 kilometers 10w-30 Honda GN4 oil.  By 2015 Honda changed the oil service interval to 12,000 kilometers on the same engine…..just one of the advantages of fuel injection over 45 year old carburetors with manual chokes…

Equally interesting Honda used the same crankshaft oil clearances on the later air cooled CB1100 that they used on their early ones as well as the old sohc750s.

The manual choke on my bike is on for about 30 seconds :-).

Bill

Yeh, I’m not sure how old you are bill. The choke manual or automatic and the carb used to be the source of the soot that made car engine oil black. Similar to the diesel particulate soot still in their oil. The unaltered modern fuel injection pretty much ended black oil between oil changes.

The old manual choke is a subjective tool. 30 seconds for you, 20 for him, 45 for another verses the O2 sensor with a baud rate finally capable…

I was born in 1964 ;-). My dad was an auto mechanic in his teens at a service station, he said that some lady customers he was pretty sure they pulled the choke knob out and hung their purse on it :-). I never owned a car that came from factory with  a manual choke, I did have a 600 Holley on one car that had one.

Bill

[Rosinante]

For years I ran an “Accusump” system on my wet sump Coventry Climax FWB motor in a Lotus Eleven. A small oil resevoir is piped with an “T” into the system. It can be isolated with a globe valve. Used it to pressurize the oil system before every start up and it also fed the oil pump if the pick up ever went dry in long, high speed corners. At the end of every race, I’d close off the tank so it was loaded for the next cold start. Brilliant system.

Looks like a LOT of positive camber on that front axle especially.  Can you tell us how much this car weighed?  I'll bet it was fun to drive. 

[Tracksnblades1]

For years I ran an “Accusump” system on my wet sump Coventry Climax FWB motor in a Lotus Eleven. A small oil resevoir is piped with an “T” into the system. It can be isolated with a globe valve. Used it to pressurize the oil system before every start up and it also fed the oil pump if the pick up ever went dry in long, high speed corners. At the end of every race, I’d close off the tank so it was loaded for the next cold start. Brilliant system.

Looks like she planted in that right turn…looks like day light under the right front 😇

Had the accumulater style of that Accusump myself on a SBC. Mine had the solenoid that allowed you to trap the 60-80psi oil pressure in the accumulator prior to shutdown without lifting the hood. Pre pressurized start up were the norm, never saw less than 30psi before turning the key.  Similar to the big 3’s  new engine startups procedure minus the natural gas..

[Rosinante]

That car looks like it would be a hoot-and-a-half to drive.  A go-cart with big tires and body panels.  I wonder if it weighed under 1000 lbs.

[BenelliSEI]

For years I ran an “Accusump” system on my wet sump Coventry Climax FWB motor in a Lotus Eleven. A small oil resevoir is piped with an “T” into the system. It can be isolated with a globe valve. Used it to pressurize the oil system before every start up and it also fed the oil pump if the pick up ever went dry in long, high speed corners. At the end of every race, I’d close off the tank so it was loaded for the next cold start. Brilliant system.

Looks like a LOT of positive camber on that front axle especially.  Can you tell us how much this car weighed?  I'll bet it was fun to drive. 

Colin Chapman used a solid axle from a very early, British Ford 10 in many of his sports racers. Cut in 1/2, they were flipped over and pivoted from centre bolts in the middle of the frame. The 4.50 X 15” Dunlop race tires are so narrow, the the positive camber didn’t really affect performance or grip. Short coil overs limited the droop to what you see there. If you look closely at the rear, you will see a lot of the positive camber is generated by the wire wheels flexing…..

That picture is taken at Waterford Hills, MI. Corner is “Big Torque”. The Eleven would pick up the front wheel on corner entry (about 80 mph) it would completely lock under braking and then very slowly rotate, staying in the air all the way around the corner. Car weighed about 1,050 lbs. the last engine we built was +140 bhp on the dyno. Car would reach +140 mph at Mosport and Watkins Glen…….

When new, they won races at 24 Hours of LeMans, 12 Hours of Sebring and many others. The body design is by Mike Costin. One of the most iconic sports cars ever built. I restored the car in 1986 and raced it for +25 years. A few months ago (with it’s latest owner) it competed in the Historic Mille Miglia in Italy!

[Rosinante]

Ha!!!!  Just as I thought!  That car would be a BLAST to drive on a track.  Is the engine in the rear?

At a local road course, the track workers put a cone on the inside of a sharp uphill left turn.  This might be what you would call a "big torque" turn.  The track workers had to keep moving the cone away from the pavement so the front left of the cars would not knock it over.  Those front left wheels were not on the pavement.  The safe distance for that cone was four feet from the pavement.

[BenelliSEI]

Ha!!!!  Just as I thought!  That car would be a BLAST to drive on a track.  Is the engine in the rear?

At a local road course, the track workers put a cone on the inside of a sharp uphill left turn.  This might be what you would call a "big torque" turn.  The track workers had to keep moving the cone away from the pavement so the front left of the cars would not knock it over.  Those front left wheels were not on the pavement.  The safe distance for that cone was four feet from the pavement.

Front engine….. Just google “Lotus Eleven, Series 1”. You will get buried in info …….Most of the images of a polished alloy car with #25 are me.

[newday777]

Ha!!!!  Just as I thought!  That car would be a BLAST to drive on a track.  Is the engine in the rear?

At a local road course, the track workers put a cone on the inside of a sharp uphill left turn.  This might be what you would call a "big torque" turn.  The track workers had to keep moving the cone away from the pavement so the front left of the cars would not knock it over.  Those front left wheels were not on the pavement.  The safe distance for that cone was four feet from the pavement.

Front engine….. Just google “Lotus Eleven, Series 1”. You will get buried in info …….

I remember watching races in the 60s as an young enthusiast with them occasionally in a race. Very impressive. I even had a HO body of it for my cars.

[BenelliSEI]

Stu….. That car was the love of my life. It’s an early 1956, Series 1. I built a virtually new frame for it using a set of original plans and the old frame. The nose and tail were fabricated by Williams and Prichard in England, the original sub contractors for Lotus. We built the “pontoons”and doors ourselves and the head fairing and tonneau cover were original parts. The Coventry Climax FWB motor came from the Canadian Navy in Nova Scotia. They still had two Fire Pumps that used the same block/head! I traded them two new Honda pumps for the originals! It was consistently as fast as the newest Formula Fords almost everywhere we went.
   One day in 2005 (racing at Watkins Glen) a New York City stock broker made me such a ridiculous offer for the car, I left it with him! It then went to California and at a recent Bonhams Auction was purchased by in Italian who is the CEO of a very famous auto and farm tractor manufacturer. Vintage racing has become a very rich man’s sport…….

[grcamna2]

Considering it should be changed every 1500 miles i do not see the point of the expensive oils as long as the one you buy meets or exceeds the original Honda spec for the year and model

It would be interesting to do an oil analysis and see what is going on at 1500 miles. That interval was established in the 1960's with oils far inferior to what we have today.

Bill

I’m pretty sure my son’s air cooled 2014 Honda CB1100 operator manual states 6,000 kilometers 10w-30 Honda GN4 oil.  By 2015 Honda changed the oil service interval to 12,000 kilometers on the same engine…..just one of the advantages of fuel injection over 45 year old carburetors with manual chokes…

Equally interesting Honda used the same crankshaft oil clearances on the later air cooled CB1100 that they used on their early ones as well as the old sohc750s.

The manual choke on my bike is on for about 30 seconds :-).

Bill

Yeh, I’m not sure how old you are bill. The choke manual or automatic and the carb used to be the source of the soot that made car engine oil black. Similar to the diesel particulate soot still in their oil. The unaltered modern fuel injection pretty much ended black oil between oil changes.

The old manual choke is a subjective tool. 30 seconds for you, 20 for him, 45 for another verses the O2 sensor with a baud rate finally capable…

I was born in 1964 ;-). My dad was an auto mechanic in his teens at a service station, he said that some lady customers he was pretty sure they pulled the choke knob out and hung their purse on it :-). I never owned a car that came from factory with  a manual choke, I did have a 600 Holley on one car that had one.

Bill

I had a 1969' Torino GT convertible and installed a Holley 500 2 Barrel with a manual choke:I like manual chokes.

[DaveBarbier]

Perhaps I did not ask this question correctly.  How can I identify proper oil for this bike in an auto parts store?  Sure, I can find a motorcycle store and they can advise me, but I was hoping I could just go to O'Reilly's or AutoZone.  In those stores, I don't think I will find an oil labeled as Castrol Wet Clutch Motorcycle Oil.

My local Autozone has Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Engine Oil Full Synthetic 20W-50 1 which has a banner on the front saying it is good for wet clutch. Valvoline 743525. I have not found a zinc content on it yet.

Bill

If you look up the MSDS it will say the percentage of zinc. If it has it it’ll probably be something like 1-3%. I believe Spectro oils have about 3% which is the highest I’ve seen.

Look for Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate which is ZDDP.

[willbird]

Perhaps I did not ask this question correctly.  How can I identify proper oil for this bike in an auto parts store?  Sure, I can find a motorcycle store and they can advise me, but I was hoping I could just go to O'Reilly's or AutoZone.  In those stores, I don't think I will find an oil labeled as Castrol Wet Clutch Motorcycle Oil.

My local Autozone has Valvoline 4 Stroke Motorcycle Engine Oil Full Synthetic 20W-50 1 which has a banner on the front saying it is good for wet clutch. Valvoline 743525. I have not found a zinc content on it yet.

Bill

If you look up the MSDS it will say the percentage of zinc. If it has it it’ll probably be something like 1-3%. I believe Spectro oils have about 3% which is the highest I’ve seen.

Look for Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate which is ZDDP.

So I did a little Dr Gookle and found this.

https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/c7c5417a-e481-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/ae47659b-d805-e811-9c13-ac162d889bd1

1120 PPM of Zinc, 1030 PPM of Phosphorous.

I have Rotella T6 in the bike now and it is said to have 1300ppm zinc and 1100 phosphorous. Pretty sure it is only 15-40 tho.

Bill

[Deltarider]

[...] Pretty sure it is only 15-40 tho.

That viscosity range is perfect. Unless you like to ride below 0 degrees Celsius. IMO you don't need thicker than 40, unless you ride in very, very hot temperatures.
I don't know what all the fuzz is about zinc. I'd be worried much more about the oil seals staying supple. To me it seems that for our very old bikes it's of much more importance.

[bryanj]

I seem to remember the zinc is because the oil is for gearbox as well and the gearbox "shears" the oil which does it no good.
Good old BMC minis if they didnt get good oil changes used to wear engines bad

[Deltarider]

Good old BMC minis if they didnt get good oil changes used to wear engines bad

Ha! If I had to point out one design that may have inspired Soichoro Honda, it would be the mini. Brilliant design by Alex Issigonis.

[bryanj]

Shame he had to work with the old A series engine

[willbird]

[...] Pretty sure it is only 15-40 tho.

That viscosity range is perfect. Unless you like to ride below 0 degrees Celsius. IMO you don't need thicker than 40, unless you ride in very, very hot temperatures.
I don't know what all the fuzz is about zinc. I'd be worried much more about the oil seals staying supple. To me it seems that for our very old bikes it's of much more importance.

Most of the bikes 54xxx miles and 50+ years it drank 10w40 and has been happy so far :-).

Bill