Author Topic: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?  (Read 522 times)

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Offline fizzlebottom

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Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« on: August 02, 2023, 07:24:04 PM »
In striving to get a bike running as perfectly as possible, we always hear about the importance of genuine Keihin jets because aftermarket brass is often manufactured to different specs than the real stuff.

But I never hear about the pilot screws. They do an important job, and it got me thinking about the work I've done on my carbs over the years. I have all original jets, floats, and needle hardware, but I know that I replaced the pilot screws with aftermarket stuff some time ago. The bike runs well, but I always wonder if it could run better with the genuine pilot screws.

Do the same issues plague pilot screws as other brass bits? Lengths, tolerances to taper, diameter, etc.
1982 CB650SC Nighthawk

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2023, 08:35:52 PM »
In striving to get a bike running as perfectly as possible, we always hear about the importance of genuine Keihin jets because aftermarket brass is often manufactured to different specs than the real stuff.

But I never hear about the pilot screws. They do an important job, and it got me thinking about the work I've done on my carbs over the years. I have all original jets, floats, and needle hardware, but I know that I replaced the pilot screws with aftermarket stuff some time ago. The bike runs well, but I always wonder if it could run better with the genuine pilot screws.

Do the same issues plague pilot screws as other brass bits? Lengths, tolerances to taper, diameter, etc.

Well, by now the soft inner 'tunnel' (in the carb's body) for the air screw is [re]formed to match your new air screws, so they should be fine so long as you don't go back to the originals.
What I've noticed on the Keyster air screws is: sometimes they are the same tip taper as the Keihins, and sometimes they are not. (?) The carb bodies are soft enough that fully seating the screw sets the inner taper of the hole (even when brand new) so they match up well afterward.

What seems to be more important is: whether the Keihin air screws had the little hole thru their tip, and whether the new Keyster screws are like that, too. Both the kits and the carbs come both ways. The 750's 7A, 657A (almost the same) and 657B carbs had the holey-tipped air screws until about 3/1972 builds, and after that they came both ways until the 750K4. Then they became solid-tipped screws.

In actual practice, since the screw is easily adjusted, it doesn't make a lot of difference in operation. If, for example, the original air screw was solid-tipped and the new Keyster screw is 'holey', the Keyster screw will need to be turned slightly inward as compared to the setting found in the Keihin version (and vice-versa). Either way, it is about a 1/8 turn difference, so it's pretty simple to find with a few test runs.

What DOES matter more is the Keyster jets, both pilots and mains. Their stamped numbers act like: [Keihin number x 0.93]
or in other words: they run about 7% lean compared to the same number in Keihins. This can be handy if you're trying to get in-between some of the more-available Keihin numbers, like maybe you if want to have a #107 mainjet:
Keyster #115 mainjet becomes (115 x 0.93)= 106.95 (close enough).

I've used them like that when the owner sends me a set of these roundtops for rebuild that already have the Keysters aboard and we can't get a new set of Keihin needles and jets.

The Keyster needles are more problematic: they start their tapers too "late" as you move down the needle (plus, they are larger diameter throughout, so you must also use their needle jets in the carb's throat, and DON'T try using Keihin needles in those as they won't work at all, or vice-versa). This "late" situation means that at around 1200 RPM the engine starts to fall off the idle circuit's control and the needle is supposed to be open enough for the fuel to come up the mainjet's needle jet - but, the Keyster needles start to let in fuel at about 1400-1500 RPM, so there is always a 'pause' or 'hesitation' felt when in 1st or 2nd gear and rolling slowly at low speed, like in a parking lot situation, and it starts to recover with more power rather suddenly about 1500 RPM. Sometimes lifting the needle(s) by a notch or two will help smooth this over. The Keyster needles with their mainjets can be 'off' the equivalent Keihin flow as much as 15% at 6500 RPM (lean), so the bike feels low on power: using larger mainjets will solve it, but might take several tries to find the right one. What I've seen so far is: if the OEM Keihin was #110 and all the parts were changed to Keyster then the mainjet becomes about #130-#140 size for the same fuel flow in the rountops (or use Keyster's #125-#135 if your Keihin mainjet was #105).

This also carries over to the PD carbs, but the numbers and needles are even more different there.

Either way, the Keyster parts can be made to work in the end, but you will spend quite some time with their jets (and needles) to get them sorted out.

Also: all modern float valves are stiffer than the old 1970s-style Keihin parts. This means your float bowls will always run a little bit lower than they used to with the softer-sprung valves. Running the fuel level a little deeper (1-2mm) will help with this issue.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2023, 09:07:19 PM »
I think there are parts of what you say that apply to my carbs, but there are definitely inherent differences that could be addressed. This is an '82 CB650SC with VB44C carbs. They are especially bizarre carbs, because the pilot screw is on the motor side of the carbs and it meters fuel instead of air. This is evident in the FSM where it calls for the screws to be turned in 1/2 a turn if riding above 6,000ft in order to account for the thinner air. With all of that said, these carbs have no way to fine-tune how they meter air. They were designed and built with adjustability as a last priority.

If I do wish in the near future, I could grab 4 brand new genuine Honda pilot screws for a whopping $22 each. In the meantime though I'll stick with the pieces in there since everything seems to be working just fine. But I may make the move for peace of mind eventually.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 08:19:17 AM by fizzlebottom »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2023, 02:33:23 AM »
Let me add my findings. As far as the CB500 and also the CB550s with oldstyle carbs, one should realise that Honda didn't use the term idle jet nor idle screw. In Hondaspeak they are called: 'slow jet' and 'airscrew'.
Already back in the 80s I've concluded that at least on my CB500 the ultimate test for the position of the airscrew is in the driveability (acceleration) and I've warned innumerable times not to try to achieve a highest rpm at idle by turning the airscrew out, a practice which may be fine for other motors with other carbs. Recently the carb setting table, p.165 of the Shop Manual CB500-550, was discussed in the UK forum. Personally I have ample indications that the carb setting table there has an error. Over the left column (carbs 022A) one should read; CB550K and not CB500. IMO that error contradicts the data Honda gave earlier on in that manual and unfortunately the error has been copied uncritically. An example is the data presented in an American Honda Motor Co. specifications booklet, edited in 1977.
Now, the jetting and position of the brassware has all to do with the state - original or not - your particular bike is in. Ofcourse. Yet I wish anyone should at least have access to the original settings Honda has given these carbs. I consider that a good starting point. That's why I have composed an overview already years ago. The other day I've updated this overview of the oldstyle carbs just a fraction and ofcourse - as always - it is open to falsification. Just let me know. Please pay extra attention to my remarks in the notes under: *, ** and ***.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 05:14:42 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2023, 10:46:32 AM »
A great compilation, Delta!
I can add a note about one that didn't get to Europe, which was/is the 627A carbs. While most of the settings were/are the same as in the "B" as your chart shows, the mainjets are #98 in those (they stick out, to me, because they were the first time I ever saw a push-in mainjet from Keihin that was not divisible by 5 in their value) and the pilots were #38 in the very early 500 (like my brother's bike) and #40 in the later one (like in mine, made 6 months later).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2023, 01:43:55 AM »
Ha! Thanks Hondaman. Much to my surprise the 627A carbs have surfaced before in this forum and more than once.
edit: Well, what do you know?! Although I haven't found the 627A number in an official Honda document yet, I've seen Honda put some alternative settings in this new to me parts list, which is - in an excellent resolution - in Aladdin's Cove of the UK site: http://info.sohc.co.uk/download/cb500k0-k1-parts-book-1972/ p.55 
« Last Edit: August 06, 2023, 03:17:13 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2023, 02:02:44 AM »
I've searched and searched but I haven't found the 627A carbs in a Honda document. Can somebody make a pic of the stamped in number 627A? To complete my collection. ;)
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Offline dave500

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Re: Are Keihin pilot screws as important as other Keihin brass?
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2023, 02:52:01 AM »
hey that first photo Delta is my finger?id recognise it anywhere i just picked my nose!if you have those drilled "vented"air screws fizz you can only enrichen so far even when bottomed out,theyll still let air through,if you cant get or find or have solid ones you can solder them solid,itll give you more control over that mixture,those drilled ones do #$%* all when you turn them,even fully seated they let air through.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2023, 02:59:52 AM by dave500 »