Author Topic: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…  (Read 484 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
So this is what my spark plugs look like. I need help. 1974 CB550K with 069A carbs. 1 and 2 look lean. 4 looks very rich and 3 looks about right.
I have all new rubbers. New isolaters and carbs boots. New O-rings for the intake manifold. I just adjusted the valves and ignition timing. All cylinders test between 128-139 lbs of compression. I’m running the stock air box. No pods. Stock points with Hondaman ignition. (I had the issue before I installed his ignition though so I know it isn’t that.)

It seems like it must be a carb issue…
My carbs have been bench synced. My old main jets looked rough so I used the new ones that came with my carb rebuild kit from 4into1. They were supposed to be stock. I’ve sonic cleaned the carbs. I did a clear line test and the floats are exactly the same height. I was trying to reuse the old brass jets but maybe they were messed up by the PO. Should I just use the new brass pilots and idle brass and emulsion tubes? I’ve heard bad things about not using the original brass… what does the pilot jet control? How much would all new Keihin brass jets costs?

It’s not the spark plugs. I’ve flip flopped them and 1 and 2 always look lean and 4 is always really rich. I don’t think it’s the ignition coils because 2 and 3 are on one coil and 1 and 4 are on the other. Can I swap the 1 and 4 plugs without issue? Is there a possibility that the coil has one bad wire?

The bike starts on the first kick and runs great. I am so close to getting this thing on the road and riding every day.  :)
Hoping someone can help. I love this bike. Thanks all in advance!!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 08:45:07 PM by Nstillwell »

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2023, 06:56:12 PM »
Another pic of what’s going on with my plugs

Offline Airborne 82nd

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 828
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2023, 07:40:04 PM »
Did I miss this What bike what carbs.

Offline scottly

  • Global Moderator
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,302
  • Humboldt, AZ
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2023, 07:48:25 PM »
Did you remove and clean the emulsion tubes? Even if the aftermarket jets weren't exactly the same as OEM, you would expect all four cylinder to run the same. Yes, if the spark plug wires will reach, you can swap them, but I doubt that's your problem.  Pilot jets control mostly idle and small throttle openings. 
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2023, 08:46:50 PM »
Did I miss this What bike what carbs.

Lol good catch. Edited the original post to have the model as a CB550 with a 069A carb. Thanks.

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2023, 08:51:49 PM »
Did you remove and clean the emulsion tubes? Even if the aftermarket jets weren't exactly the same as OEM, you would expect all four cylinder to run the same. Yes, if the spark plug wires will reach, you can swap them, but I doubt that's your problem.  Pilot jets control mostly idle and small throttle openings.

Yeah I cleaned them and visually inspected them afterwards. It all looked clean… yeah I suspect it has something to do with either the pilot or the idle mixture screw. Or something with the float breather tubes. The plugs seemed to look more even when I did a plug chop at 5000 rpm’s.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2023, 08:55:27 PM by Nstillwell »

Online newday777

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,320
  • Avatar is my 76 K6 in Colorado w/Cody on back 1980
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2023, 03:37:44 AM »
Did you remove and clean the emulsion tubes? Even if the aftermarket jets weren't exactly the same as OEM, you would expect all four cylinder to run the same. Yes, if the spark plug wires will reach, you can swap them, but I doubt that's your problem.  Pilot jets control mostly idle and small throttle openings.

Yeah I cleaned them and visually inspected them afterwards. It all looked clean… yeah I suspect it has something to do with either the pilot or the idle mixture screw. Or something with the float breather tubes. The plugs seemed to look more even when I did a plug chop at 5000 rpm’s.

Some missing information from you so far, you said that the jets were messed up by the po. How? What do they look like?(pictures)
How did you clean the emulsion tubes?

You did a plug chop without vacuum balancing your carbs(just on a bench syncyou said)? Did you ride the bike to do the plug chop? Or just reving in the shop in neutral?
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,132
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2023, 04:15:20 AM »
[...]
The bike starts on the first kick and runs great. I am so close to getting this thing on the road and riding every day.  :)[...]
Then... what's the problem? You haven't specified what rpm the plugs noses mirror. I wouldn't bother about what they look like @ idle. Idling it is very, very, very hard to get them looking the same. Concentrate on driveability. Does your bike accelerate well?
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2023, 05:31:59 AM »
Some missing information from you so far, you said that the jets were messed up by the po. How? What do they look like?(pictures)
How did you clean the emulsion tubes?

You did a plug chop without vacuum balancing your carbs(just on a bench syncyou said)? Did you ride the bike to do the plug chop? Or just reving in the shop in neutral?

Well I don’t know that the jets were messed up by the previous owner. They all looked clean except for the mains which I replaced because the originals were corroded. The emulsion tubes looked perfect when I pulled them but I still sonic cleaned them and stuck a guitar string through the holes to ensure no blockages. I am just running out of causes for the plug condition.

I have not vacuum balanced the carbs. Just bench synced.
So the plugs looked as they do in the picture after running it for approximately 20 miles and then coming home which has some idling at stop signs.
I did do a plug chop where I revved it at a pretty consistent 5K coming home the other day. I shifted it into neutral at every stop sign. I don’t have any pictures but the dark plug didn’t look as bad…
Sorry I’m new to the whole plug chop thing.

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2023, 05:35:43 AM »
[...]
The bike starts on the first kick and runs great. I am so close to getting this thing on the road and riding every day.  :)[...]
Then... what's the problem? You haven't specified what rpm the plugs noses mirror. I wouldn't bother about what they look like @ idle. Idling it is very, very, very hard to get them looking the same. Concentrate on driveability. Does your bike accelerate well?

So it does drive well. I’m just concerned about burning a valve or messing with the engine. I will have to do another trip where I ride the bike at 5K and pull the plugs and take pictures. It does seem like it could lead to issues if it is burning this uneven though… am I wrong in thinking that?

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,132
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2023, 07:44:20 AM »
[...] I will have to do another trip where I ride the bike at 5K and pull the plugs and take pictures. [...]
That's the only plug job (@ 5K) for us amateurs, that makes sense imo*. Don't bother with plug jobs at other rpm. They are often advised in this forum, but personally I don't find them useful. They are based on theory from books. People nowadays are used to precision expressed in digits. Realise the combustion engine is only the next step in evolution, right after the steam engine. Some say it's still a kind of beast that lives. An exhaust gas analyzer is another thing ofcourse, but then you talk runs on a dyno to make it meaningful.
In my experience the little holes in the needle jets are not that crucial. Decades ago I've cleaned mine, which had some (not all!) blocked by white deposits in them... never noticed a difference after cleaning.
When your plugs look OK at 5000 rpm, you can for the rest rely on the precision of the Keihin parts, given you have the stock air intake**. Don't worry too much about possible damage. These engines are pretty robust and forgiving.

* Some argue you need brand new plugs for a plug job run. Not me. As long as the plugs function and don't short, they are fit for the job. Some will say you need a looong distance for a looong time. Not in my experience. A couple of minutes will do. Just pull the clutch and turn the killswitch to OFF simultaneously and roll to a parking space. Plugs are easy to remove when hot. Use the Honda wrench.
** I'm not sure what is "K" on your bike and what is "F". The 069A carb setings were in principle for the F model which had a 4 into 1 exhaust.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 08:00:21 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline RAFster122s

  • I feel like a really really
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,389
  • SOHC4 member # 2605
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2023, 08:01:57 AM »
Two of your plugs show no deposited on the insulator that I can see. Rich on the other two plugs… not a spark caused condition.

Brass needs all deposited removed and all holes clean.

HondaMan has some info on the sizes he recommends to open up the emulsion tubes to handle our modern gas in USA. It is good advice.  You can find it in Thoughts of HondaMan in FAQ section of forums.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline Erny

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 667
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2023, 02:02:57 PM »
If I may, based on my experience:
- make sure you have idle jets on all 4 carbs the same, OEM. You can still buy new, they are not expensive. Some might have been cleaned with some hard steel wire in the past, so holes could be enlarged slighly..
- check in detail (especially inside!) emulsification tubes on "black" cyls for corrosion, check if needles are correct and not worn. Still possible to buy new sets (ebay etc). I was trying to fix one cyl dark plug, issue finally isolated in carb. just after some time I got idea to really look inside emul tube and found impacted one quite corroded inside. Since I replaced it issue is gone! My story explained here on UK forum http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,25641.msg235103.html#msg235103
- I pre-sync carbs on the bench using steel balls, then only minimal adjustment is needed on the bike (if any). Simple and saves a lot of nerves  ;) Video here
CB750K K7 USA model (1977)
CB550K1 USA model (1975)

Offline seanbarney41

  • not really that much younger than an
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,849
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2023, 02:27:11 PM »
Judging by your plugs, 1 and 2 there is NO combustion...please confirm there is spark on 1 and 2.  Perhaps a quick video of the bike idling and some revs would help us help you, if you have the tech available.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline jwurbel

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 192
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2023, 05:44:50 PM »
Erne, 

Could you be a little more explicit on your bench syncing with steel balls?

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2023, 06:23:31 PM »
Judging by your plugs, 1 and 2 there is NO combustion...please confirm there is spark on 1 and 2.  Perhaps a quick video of the bike idling and some revs would help us help you, if you have the tech available.

The bike is running really well if it is only running on 2 cylinders. I checked and it does have spark on all cylinders… It starts on the first kick. I will try to post a video of it starting and running. Also it does 80 pretty effortlessly.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 07:42:20 PM by Nstillwell »

Offline Nstillwell

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2023, 06:34:25 PM »
If I may, based on my experience:
- make sure you have idle jets on all 4 carbs the same, OEM. You can still buy new, they are not expensive. Some might have been cleaned with some hard steel wire in the past, so holes could be enlarged slighly..
- check in detail (especially inside!) emulsification tubes on "black" cyls for corrosion, check if needles are correct and not worn. Still possible to buy new sets (ebay etc). I was trying to fix one cyl dark plug, issue finally isolated in carb. just after some time I got idea to really look inside emul tube and found impacted one quite corroded inside. Since I replaced it issue is gone! My story explained here on UK forum http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,25641.msg235103.html#msg235103
- I pre-sync carbs on the bench using steel balls, then only minimal adjustment is needed on the bike (if any). Simple and saves a lot of nerves  ;) Video here

I will try another set of pilot jets from the carb rebuild kit to see if that makes a difference. We’ll have to see how the bike runs with different pilot jets. If I nail that down, I’ll get some keihin jets.
I looked at your post. Very interesting. I have no idea how you bench synced your carbs with the steel balls though. I used a 1/8 inch drill bit.

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,132
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: Carb issue…. 1 and 2 lean, 4 too rich. My bike is almost there…
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2023, 01:47:57 AM »
With steel balls it will work, but it can be time consuming. I have my own method of bench syncing. I use a small allen key under the slide engine side.
Here's an idea anyone of you could try to see if it works. I haven't tried it myself yet, because I'm too lazy to remove the rack and put it on the kitchen table just for that.
The basic idea is to visually 'enlarge' the differences in gaps appearing at the bottom of the slides engine side. This by using the principle of leverage.
You'd need four identical say allen keys or sticks and position them in an identical way, one under each slide, protruding forward. You may need to turn the idle knob for this, but that's no problem; after finishing the syncing, you can readjust the knob ofcourse for the right idle.
Position the rack on the table like it is on the bike.
Insert 4 small allen keys in the gap under the slides. I don't remember if there's any slope in front of the slides, but the idea is to turn the idle knob thus that the allen keys (or sticks) are all free from the slope in front of the slides. Depending on the length of your four indicating sticks, even a small difference in the slide opening will be visually translated in an 'exaggerated' way so to speak, by the ends of the sticks (because of the leverage). Now adjust each carb sync screw thus that all four sticks 'dangle' at the same angle, which will be easy to see, because of the leverage which exxagerates things. I hope I've made myself clear. Please don't hesistate to correct me.

For those of you, who have the carbs completely apart, a situation like in the pic below, I can indicate how to come to the right basic setting, the way Keihin must have done it. However I'm a bit reluctant to publish it, because, frankly, the process of dissasembling your carbs to such a degree, is never needed. Gruzzel in Germany has done that anyway, has made the basic setiing and did not even need any further dynamically syncing afterwards.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2023, 06:59:01 AM by Deltarider »
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."