Author Topic: cb400f valve adj procedures by design doesn't just leave room for error...  (Read 670 times)

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Offline Redline it

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being the proud owner of 3 bikes and 4 motors of the 400fs 76, i've had a lot of valve adjustment experience and usually it has it's peculiar lock nut's ability to change the gap so that a stab in the dark is usually the way i end up doing it.

i have a xr650r 2000 that is a breeze to adjust by first they give you a target torque 18ft lbs, i shoot for 17ft lbs for the lock nut, but second cool part is to  adjust valve clearance is simply putting the crankshaft where it should be and loosening the adjuster screw and place the feeler ga, under it and tighten the screw until it's snug then torque the nut and the clearance is the same as it was before tightening the nut.

the 400fs i've had 2 nuts fall off within a few minutes of running, so i'm kind of spooked, because of it being not tight enough. the trouble arises when using a feeler ga under the adjuster screw tightened by hand  and then tightening the lock nut goes well for a brief moment, and then it goes from turning the screw into the now too tight feeler gauge, so you back it out and then try holding the screw while tightening. and then a unique and regular occurrence of gap happens, the tighter the nut is turned and even following with turning the screw intentionally,  the gap gets wider on it's own to where a .006 walks through. so does anyone know a ball park torque on that screw/nut, i'm assuming close to the 18ft lbs maybe 15ft lbs, but what seems to be happening, other than worrying about it, but as it gets tight while there's a feeler ga taking up the gap, the nut bears on the rocker while pulling the screw into the rocker and away from the valve stem? it sounds far fetched but what else is happening there. and not every valve, nor any respond like the others. they are completely a separate nightmare all of their own. 8 nightmares in each head.

still working on the project in the living room, i thought i had taken pictures of the motor removal using 2 couch cushions but apparently i was in too much of a hurry to get it out and finish stripping the frame of all the accessories to start painting it. (i'll get pictures of installing it with the 2 cushions,) which is the first set back, as nowhere not even phone calls to rustoleum could get anyone that could sell it's appliance epoxy so i ended up using a rustoleum automotive primer in just the bare metal spots, then rustoleum gloss enamel. and other parts i used the semi gloss and satin gloss, and after that defeat, and the primer was shot, within an hour the sun was already set and i figured might as well finish it in the dark that way i'd have an excuse of it looking now just painted getto. it came out better than i thought it would. only had some light spots, i hung it in tree with some wind blowing and started painting. i know it's probably not gonna last long but either am i so i didn't care. the top of the motor is so missing the silver paint and it's kind of corrosion so i'll hold some cardboard over spots and paint it one coverage, tape some chrome nuts or rusted nuts. i don't think i'm even gonna take the valve cover off, the valves had excessive clearances, the cam chain adjust bolt lock broke free, i didn't unscrew it but i did back  it out a 1/4 turn and put it back where it was. it's still loose. i might just try connecting the ign and other electricals and a battery and see if it'll start on the floor, if it fired up, i wonder if it'd bounce around a lot. i started 16 hp Koehler electric start that had the balance gear and shaft out, on the concrete floor, it was bouncing off the floor.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 04:36:56 PM by Redline it »

Online newday777

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So am I understanding you correctly that you leave the feeler guage in while you tighten the locknut??
If so, that is where you are failing. I was taught in the 70s to always remove the feeler guage before tightening the locknut. You will find the sweet spot feel on the pulling the feeler guage. It takes practice.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline MRieck

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So am I understanding you correctly that you leave the feeler guage in while you tighten the locknut??
If so, that is where you are failing. I was taught in the 70s to always remove the feeler guage before tightening the locknut. You will find the sweet spot feel on the pulling the feeler guage. It takes practice.
Right. That and using the too big gauge method works too. Meaning....you adjust to .004....it fits but the .005 doesn't....you are good. God....when I think about how much lash I've set.... ::) ::) ;D
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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I learned formally and from career mechanics to adjust and tighten the jamb nut with the feeler gauge between the adjuster screw and the valve stem. Bucket and shims under a camshaft, obviously not..

There must be some clearance between the lash adjuster-screw’s threads and the female threads it screws into.
Without out clearance it would be a zero press fit and it wouldn’t readily adjust or turn easily with any type of finesse. This same clearance is taken up somewhat when adjusting and turning the lash adjuster screw in against the selected feeler gauge and valve stem. Additional male and female thread clearance will be taken up when final lash adjusters nut torque is achieved and seats the male and female threads against one another.

This is the feel, technique, knack, etc, that one learns to predict how much tightening the lash adjuster nut is going to affect the desired lash. For instance on your 400, if the feeler gauge has the perfect drag before torquing the nut and then it measures.006, try initially setting that perfect drag to a too tight or considerably too tight of a drag first.  Then torque the adjuster’s nut and see whether you now get that perfect drag after torquing the lock nut. If your clearance still opens up too much you’ll have to keep experimenting until you devise a technique that provides a predictable outcome. Once you come up with something predictable, check recheck and move to the next one.

I think most mistakes occur trying to hold the adjuster screw stationary while torquing or tightening the lock nut..On real troublesome lash adjustments or awkward accesses (like working through a tiny hole), I’ve purposely used the wrong feeler gauge (too small) to achieve the correct lash after tightening the nut..just try what works for you.

When finished I always check with a thousand larger and a thousand smaller to see if the larger is a no/go and whether I like the drag feel better with the smaller one or the correct gauge.


As far as starting engines on the floor for a test run, it happens everyday. It’s better if they have some type of stand that prevents the engine or pan from being damaged from the concrete. I like something a little more ridged than a cushion, but if it works, it works. I’ve always started large diesel engines on the floor after rebuilding. Some large engines have a lot of accessories driven and a complicated installation. So I like to start and listen to it for a minute or two before getting 8 or more hours into it before noticing an obvious problem(s). I’ve never seen an engine including really large ones run away or around on the floor or stand. Unless someone jacked the throttle too much on a really responsive engine, testing the equal opposite reaction of Newton’s teachings...
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 09:59:27 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline Redline it

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I learned formally and from career mechanics to adjust and tighten the jamb nut with the feeler gauge between the adjuster screw and the valve stem. Bucket and shims under a camshaft, obviously not..

There must be some clearance between the lash adjuster-screw’s threads and the female threads it screws into.
Without out clearance it would be a zero press fit and it wouldn’t readily adjust or turn easily with any type of finesse. This same clearance is taken up somewhat when adjusting and turning the lash adjuster screw in against the selected feeler gauge and valve stem. Additional male and female thread clearance will be taken up when final lash adjusters nut torque is achieved and seats the male and female threads against one another.

This is the feel, technique, knack, etc, that one learns to predict how much tightening the lash adjuster nut is going to affect the desired lash. For instance on your 400, if the feeler gauge has the perfect drag before torquing the nut and then it measures.006, try initially setting that perfect drag to a too tight or considerably too tight of a drag first.  Then torque the adjuster’s nut and see whether you now get that perfect drag after torquing the lock nut. If your clearance still opens up too much you’ll have to keep experimenting until you devise a technique that provides a predictable outcome. Once you come up with something predictable, check recheck and move to the next one.

I think most mistakes occur trying to hold the adjuster screw stationary while torquing or tightening the lock nut..On real troublesome lash adjustments or awkward accesses (like working through a tiny hole), I’ve purposely used the wrong feeler gauge (too small) to achieve the correct lash after tightening the nut..just try what works for you.

When finished I always check with a thousand larger and a thousand smaller to see if the larger is a no/go and whether I like the drag feel better with the smaller one or the correct gauge.


As far as starting engines on the floor for a test run, it happens everyday. It’s better if they have some type of stand that prevents the engine or pan from being damaged from the concrete. I like something a little more ridged than a cushion, but if it works, it works. I’ve always started large diesel engines on the floor after rebuilding. Some large engines have a lot of accessories driven and a complicated installation. So I like to start and listen to it for a minute or two before getting 8 or more hours into it before noticing an obvious problem(s). I’ve never seen an engine including really large ones run away or around on the floor or stand. Unless someone jacked the throttle too much on a really responsive engine, testing the equal opposite reaction of Newton’s teachings...
exactly spot on what i'm talking about! after the many adjustments i've made for valve clearances, it seems while younger, a bit of more luck or testosterone makes it easier. but now, the weirdest things happen to show up. but the extra clearance has always kind of shown up at a certain point of tightening the lock nut with or without the feeler ga in place. sometimes it just falls in place, i dont' know how many .002 gauges i end up breaking flipping back and for to the no go sizes, .002 is just too small. i have no idea what this motor went through, it has 10,500miles on the odometer, nothing looks bent of broken from whoever had it before it sat so long, i don't know if they changed oil or not, as there was 1/2 of what , normally would be in filled 400 pan,plus there was sludge i've never seen that before. there is a peculiar bend or dent like if it was in a vise or something, just above the front motor hanger that has a slight depth line around the rear side of that single tube. and just in front of the bottom hanger bolts both sides there's marks or dents like as if somebody pulled it out of a lake, how those marks or dents got there is puzzling, as nothing else except for minor scratches on the exhaust, but no dents there are on the bike anywhere.  there's not a ding in front fender just rust. so how would the mark behind the wheel gotten up there? the only reason i want to risk not seeing the timing chain buggared up from being run too loose is, i don't want to through the valves again. i got a plan. thanks

Offline PeWe

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A little bit more lash better than opposite.
Too many times I have checked valve lash and found a little bit much.
After several tries, happy to get same as it was.

I prefer a little bit more when it comes to silly small lash as 0.05, 0.08mm as an example. I use 0.1mm feeler gauge.
Some cams work better with more lash.

Test with the next size up, thicker gauge give piece in mind when not fit. Same procedure with all kind of points, ignition as well as regulator etc.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
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Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Deltarider

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As Pewe says, stay on the safe side. Especially for the exhaust ones. I recommend 0,1mm for them.
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Online bryanj

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Not a problem if you use the Honda tool for adjusting
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Sludge in an air cooled engine…?   😳

Sounds like non-detergent oil… which was used primarily on engines with no pressurized oil or oil filter….think old splash lubrication…then the sludge was settled contaminates that one didn’t want circulating around in a non-oil filter engine. A good thing for no oil filter…when pressurized oil and filters came out detergent oils were used to keep contaminates in a suspension until the filter trapped them…

Surely if she was at the bottom of the lake,  it would be a sediment type of sludge. Nevertheless I would clean it out if it’s still there after your accumulated miles and oil changes…🤔
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Offline rotortiller

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Quote
one learns to predict how much tightening the lash adjuster nut is going to affect the desired lash

Best piece of advice I have seen in a while.

Offline Kevin

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Not a problem if you use the Honda tool for adjusting
My thoughts too......

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Offline Keith

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Also be sure your wrench is not contacting the valve adjustment opening in the head! Feels tight but it’s not!

Offline Kelly E

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Those dents may be from mounting a crash bar on the front down tubes.
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The Rust Bros. Garage Collection
1974 Honda CB 550 K0                                            1971 MGB/GT
1975 Honda CB 400F Super Sport                          1972 MGB/GT
1977 Kawasaki KZ 1000 LTD                                   1985 GMC S15
1978 Kawasaki KL 250
1980 Suzuki GS 1100E
1982 Honda CB 900F Super Sport
1983 Honda CB 1100F
1984 Honda VF 700S Sabre
1984 Honda VF 1000F Interceptor
1990 Moto Guzzi 1000 Le Mans
1994 Kawasaki Concours ZG 1000A9
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Offline Redline it

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Re: cb400f valve adj procedures by design doesn't just leave room for error...
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2023, 07:23:19 AM »
Not a problem if you use the Honda tool for adjusting

Honda Tool? well now, it could be.  i'm afraid to post a picture of the socket i welded onto something laying around handy, at the time on account i can't weld worth beans, normally using a 110v miller cricket with a modified spool tensioner and the wrong rod, always. if honda tool bag department seen it, they'd probably make a copy and add it to the underseat tool bag. i'm always late on learning things like a honda tool. so last night i decided to take the valve cover back off to check the tensioner if the horseshoe is not stuck. but loosening the adjuster screws i put it on tdc #1/4 with the #1 being both with clearance and the ex on #2 and int on #3 or whichever they were, thinking i don't really need to back those off so i only backed off the ones that were currently holding a valve open, and for the very first time i've ever done that, normally i just loosen the bolts in a loosening criss cross way while holding the cover down by hand as much as possible or their stuck to the case halves, and re-fastening it, only 1 time the last time did i loosen any valves and hold em with rubber bands. at least 10 times before with no problems, just put it on evenly. and this morning i read these responses to find out i should release all adjusters. i'll have to check out the honda valve adj tool. ill post a picture of my creation, and if it's nearly identical to that factory part, i'll say right now, that it was completely random design, without any drawings.

Online newday777

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Re: cb400f valve adj procedures by design doesn't just leave room for error...
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2023, 08:11:23 AM »
Not a problem if you use the Honda tool for adjusting

This is a copy of the tool honda offered back in the 70s.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A