Author Topic: Plug fouling  (Read 1133 times)

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Offline jwurbel

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Plug fouling
« on: August 21, 2023, 07:09:35 PM »
This is starting to get to me!

Hate to even post, but am running out of options, I think.
Have 72 K2.  Bike is stock except for HM 300 pipes which I have run before with no issues.
Bike sat for 25 years and I needed to through everything.  Carbs totally cleaned and used original brass or replaced with Honda parts.  That included the floats and needle valve and seats.  Running 110/40 jetting with clip in 4th position from the top.
Insulators new as well as carb manifolds.  Bench synced and then balanced with Carbtune.  Measured fuel level with clear tube method after setting floats at 26mm.  Level was high so dropped to 25 mm and that came close to the 3-4 mm level below carb lip.  No leaks checking with carb cleaner.  Air mixture at one turn.  Had problem with spark advancer but clipped per Mark Paris and that took care of that.  Put in new plugs after balancing.
Plugs want to foul after 5 minutes on road.  Seems to want to bog on acceleration from idle but runs strong after that.  The issue seems to be in the idle circuit but that is only a guess on my part.  Any help or ideas would be appreciated.

Offline scottly

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2023, 07:16:13 PM »
Please post pics of your spark plugs.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2023, 07:57:32 PM »
Would love to, but I am away for the next month.
All I can say is they are sooty.  Not wet, dry.

Offline scottly

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2023, 08:02:06 PM »
Then you have a carb problem: too much fuel and/or too little air.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2023, 08:18:20 PM »
This is EXACTLY what happened to my K2 after it sat for 5+ years following cancer I had in 2001.

I chased it for almost a month: I was getting 3 fouled sparkplugs in less than 5 miles of riding, over and over, with the last one fouling from the others missing, by 6 miles. It took me 3 sets of plugs to get it to work and back, 11 miles total distance.

After lots of things, I discovered that the emulsifier air passages were fully blocked in the 3 carbs that fouled the plugs first, but only partially blocked in the last one.  In my book, in the Carbs section, I show 2 pictures where I am pushing a soft mechanic's wire in thru this convoluted passage: it starts with a dogleg right at the little brass port in the air bell at the back of the carb, and then they go straight to the mainjet emulsifier. You must remove the needle jet (gently, please) in the middle of the carb's throat to push the wire thru to there, and 'saw' it back-and-forth a few times to push the corrosion out thru the emulsifier's passage. It will be a dull grey color. Then flush well (I use Brake Cleaner spray, with goggle and gloves and a shirt I don't wish to keep...) and reassemble. Do it to all 4 carbs: if one or more have this, they all do.

Later on I discovered this happens when MTBE fuel was used and allowed to evaporate more than once from those passages. It left behind a white zinc powder that was dissolved from the casting itself around the passage. Still later, someone who had access to the tiny brass plugs that you see at the back of the carb that plug this passage after it was straight-drilled, removed the plugs and took marvelous micro-pictures of the inside of an affected K1's carb (657A, similar in design) that had suffered the same fate.

Happily, ethanol-laced gas doesn't do this: MTBE fuels were intentioned to remove cars and bikes like these from the American hiways by damaging their zinc-aluminum carbs and intake manifolds: fortunately for us, we didn't use enough of it to kill these carbs.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2023, 06:10:29 AM »
Mark thanks.  The symptoms are indeed similar.  However I was aware of this from your book which I have and previous posts.  I removed each and ran the wire.  Additionally I took 0000 steel wool and polished the inside and out.  Then tool a high lumen mini light and could see no corrosion.

But one major point that could be contributing and that is the gas.  Tried regular ethanol 89 in the beginning.  It started to dissolve the inside of my insulators.  So I purchased and have been using Sunoco 95 which has no ethanol but is ungodly expensive.  An issue?  If so, how do I avoid all the issues with regular ethanol laced gas?

Offline smee

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2023, 12:28:21 PM »
Mark thanks.  The symptoms are indeed similar.  However I was aware of this from your book which I have and previous posts.  I removed each and ran the wire.  Additionally I took 0000 steel wool and polished the inside and out.  Then tool a high lumen mini light and could see no corrosion.

But one major point that could be contributing and that is the gas.  Tried regular ethanol 89 in the beginning.  It started to dissolve the inside of my insulators.  So I purchased and have been using Sunoco 95 which has no ethanol but is ungodly expensive.  An issue?  If so, how do I avoid all the issues with regular ethanol laced gas?

What are your carbs stamped? If they are B750A or 7A the mains should be 120 and the jet at the 3rd position (not that it means much for your idle).
What does your air filter look like?
Any hangups on the choke plate?
Timing look ok? Ground straps across all plugs consistent and at ~half way up strap?

May consider dropping the slow down to 38 if you find it runs fine through rest of the throttle positions.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 12:30:14 PM by smee »

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2023, 02:11:15 PM »
657A

Dwell and timing set perfect prior to carb sync.

Air filter has no discoloration as new

Not sure what a ground snap is but no hang ups with throttle response if that means anything


Offline HondaMan

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2023, 05:10:50 PM »
You have the same carbs I have on my K2.
The jetting should be #40 pilot and #110 mainjet (that was OEM until the 657B in the K2 bikes, when it went to #105 mains). The float depth, if you still have the brass floats, would be 25-26mm as measured at the tiny blade (if yours still have the blade) edge adjacent to the 'notch' in the gasket surface. If that blade edge is gone (MTBE ate them) then use 26mm from the gasket surface as teh depth.

BUT...you say the inside of the insulators is dissolving with ethanol? That is very strange, I haven't seen that, but I have also only used the Honda insulators since I got 2 sets of non-Honda ones in 2010 and they both went bad in use by 2012 (cracked).

One thing that is common with ALL the insulators we are getting now is: they are too small on their OD. This makes them leak vacuum when using the Honda clamps. This will also blacken sparkplugs, and quickly, because the slower airspeed thru the carbs, due to makeup air coming in from a leak at the hose, will make the carbs mix richer: that's what they are designed to do.

Can you post a close-up pisture of either the #1 or #4 carb-hose junction? That's where they will leak air (vacuum) the most.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2023, 05:35:51 PM »
Will do, but can’t before 10/1 due to work schedule

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2023, 05:39:26 PM »
One thing more.  I did try looking for vac leaks an d found none.  Using OEM insulators.  But will photo when I can.

So I should disregard the Sunoco gas as a contributing factor?

Online seanbarney41

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2023, 06:40:03 PM »
I have seen where gas higher than 91 octane makes for sooty plugs in stock compression cb750.  Mine always kept running with regular high rpm wringing out.  Eventually, I just gave up running anything higher than 89.  Here in Michigan, lots of water, so lots of boats and atv/orv machines so there is lots of Motorsport 90 available.  This is ethanol free 90 octane and runs great in these old 70's bikes.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2023, 07:36:12 PM »
Should I move to Michigan?  😄

Offline scottly

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2023, 07:37:57 PM »
You didn't have a problem with fouling plugs last month. Any changes since then, besides the gas?
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,193025.msg2251366.html#msg2251366
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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2023, 06:04:24 AM »
The topic was slide height, not plug fouling

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2023, 05:03:30 AM »
Mark,

Here are the photos of 1 & 4 you wanted.  As you can see, those aren’t Honda clamps.

Offline Scootch

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2023, 05:46:24 AM »
I suggest putting the needle clips on the middle position.

Offline Scootch

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2023, 08:39:29 AM »
I also am battling the plug fouling demons. I have a K0. Rebuilt the carbs this summer. 110 and 40 jets. Clips on middle needle position. Floats set to 26. Was running D8EA plugs. 1 and 4 were good. 2 and 3 were less good. Recently switched to D7EA plugs. We shall see. I was also getting some popping on decel. Recently I have tried turning the idle mix screws in an 1/8 turn at a time. I've done that 2x so far. Decel popping is almost entirely gone. Motor idles better. Interested to know what the plugs are going to look like after I get a few miles on them. YMMV

Offline jwurbel

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2023, 08:22:25 PM »
Sounds like my next move.  Moving clip back to 3rd position and trying mixture screw option.  Not sure yet about the plugs.  Using the Denso x24es-u currently.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2023, 09:02:00 PM »
I had K6 carbs on my K2.
(086A). Needles worked best in 4th notch from top.

I replaced them with a set of 064A.
First same jetting. Plugs became sooty and I noticed too rich behavior when reducing throttle from 140kmh to 100kmh.

Lowered needles to middle notch to get it right.

Stock airbox with K&N filter and Yamiya No number 4-4. Like HM300.

Air screw 1 turn out
Pilot 40
Main jets 115.

Plugs look rather OK with 115.
I'll try 110 to verify if 110 or 115 is the best.
Fuel Shell V-Power.

Update:
Main jet 120 improved throttle response after 100kmh.

Important that fuel level in float bowls are correct. Not too high overflowing and sooting plugs or too low causing running out of fuel in higher speed that can trick the rider that main jets are too small.
Then increase main jets cause sooty plugs, WTF?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2023, 12:52:20 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2023, 08:49:29 PM »
Mark,

Here are the photos of 1 & 4 you wanted.  As you can see, those aren’t Honda clamps.

Those are nice clamps! I saw someone else with those, and they fit the grooves of the hoses well without the high$$ price tag of the fancy ones I've been using.
Your bowl depths are close to mine: I might suggest turning the air screws in to 3/4 turn, and lowering the octane (if possible).

BTW: have you already opened up the 0.031" emulsifier holes in your carbs to 0.0375" or 0.039"?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Slow2

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2023, 01:07:19 PM »
I ran my 1975 CB750 for the first time a couple of days ago. Only rode it for a short time, just 3or4 times around the block. Didn’t have much time but wanted to ride it. It cranked and ran perfect. Got it out awhile ago to ride around awhile. After about 10 minutes, it wanted to bog down and wouldn’t idle. Made it back to the house and waited for it to cool down enough to start checking everything. Plugs were black with soot, like it is running extremely rich. I then checked the clamps on the rubber boots and they were extremely loose. Seems heat cycling them when synching and then riding, loosened them up. Tighten the crap out of the clamps and I’m hoping that solves the problem.

Ed

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2023, 09:24:35 PM »
Ed, careful you don't tighten too much, you can do so and cause clamps to cut into intake rubbers...
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline PeWe

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2023, 11:29:08 AM »
Later rubbers are softer and thinner than the old original and spares from the 80's.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Stev-o

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Re: Plug fouling
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2023, 12:40:56 PM »
Mark,

Here are the photos of 1 & 4 you wanted.  As you can see, those aren’t Honda clamps.

Those are nice clamps! I saw someone else with those, and they fit the grooves of the hoses well...

I believe those are Norma SS clamps....

https://www.amazon.com/NORMA-01266704041-000-0539-Hose-Clamps-mm-50/dp/B06Y29W4YF
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........