Author Topic: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?  (Read 25831 times)

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Offline frostypuck

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Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« on: March 14, 2007, 01:15:13 PM »
Having just returned from the shop with my freshly mounted set of tires, I thought I'd take a couple pics of different sized tires mounted on stock rims. I happened to have a 110/90 sitting next to a 120/90 and noticed how much fatter the 120 is.
I also measured the tires (mounted) at their widest points. What I found:

110/90-18 Rear, measures 4.1875 inches (middle tire in the pic)
120/90-18 Rear, measures 4.750 inches (left tire in the pic)
110/90-19 FRONT, measures 4.125 inches (right tire in the pic)

Not pictured yet---'78 750K 130/90-17Rear--- an astounding 5.25 inches!
and '78 750K Front 100/90-19---3.750 inches
Of course, each manufacturer is going to be a little different, but for comparison my '77 Gold Wing with spoke wheels Rear MT90-17 is 5.125 inches and the front MT90-19 is 4 inches.
Hope this helps,
Chris in Boston
Boston, MA, USA

Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2007, 01:21:54 PM »
The 110/90-18 Rear, measures 4.1875 inches (middle tire in the pic) is a Bridgestone Battleaxe BT45 - and is mine - going on the cafe K2 to match the BT45 upfront - should be interesting as Ive never tried Bridgestone before. I went with the 110 this time after the latest 110 v 120 tire thread - wanted to see if there was a big difference in handling/wear - I currently have a Dunlop 590 (120) on the K4 for comparison.

Wooohooo new tires!

Cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2007, 03:21:51 PM »
Do the 110 & 120 rears have the same height when mounted on the same size rim?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline frostypuck

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2007, 03:55:35 PM »
Actually, the 120 is ever so slightly taller, when compared to the 110. In fact when I was trying to get them to stand next to each other, it was pretty obvious the way the axles didn't line up together, the 110 axle was below the 120's.
Later,
Chris in Boston
Boston, MA, USA

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2007, 04:19:31 PM »
Is the height difference due to a larger tire on the same rim causing it to bulge taller than it would on the approppriate size rim?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline frostypuck

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2007, 04:30:14 PM »
That's exactly what I'm thinking. In fact, the guy that mounted them for me said the 120 is "ballooning" more, has more of a V shaped profile when compared to the 110, which puffs out the tread area.
Chris
Boston, MA, USA

osquerik

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2007, 11:13:55 PM »
Is the height difference due to a larger tire on the same rim causing it to bulge taller than it would on the approppriate size rim?

Yes and no. The first number (110, 120, etc) is the tire width in mm, and the second number (80, 90, etc) is the height of the tire as a percentage of the width. For example a 120/90 tire will be 120mm wide and 108mm tall (which is 90% of 120mm). Bulging contributes very little to the tire height.

eldar

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2007, 06:30:06 AM »
Thats about it. The 120 tire is 108mm tall and the 110 tire is 99mm. According to math anyways.  A 130 is 117mm tall.

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2007, 03:49:23 PM »
just been to the rim shop for my racer project and his recomendation was to match very closely tire width to rim width.

I think the Avon AM22 / AM23 tires site has a good chart of the recommended rim size for each tire width.

for the 130 rear I am planning for my racer, a 3" rim is required, any less and tires gets squashed and offers less full lean grip and stability

Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2007, 08:08:15 AM »
So i got the rear tire - Battleaxe BT45 from Frostypuck (see pic above) last night and this morning took some photos to compare the BT-45 (110-90-18) with the Dunlop (120-90-18) that I have on my other CB750s (2 x K4). Here are some comparison pics for those that are interested -I always like to see pics as opposed to math  ;)


BT-45 tire next to the Dunlop on K4 #1 (which is on the bike -stock rims)


Another angle - same bike - notice width


Another angle - notice height


And again...


one more...


Next to K4 #2 - Dunlop 120-90-18 -buchanan rims


Side view comparing to #2 K4

Hope this helps,
Andy



Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2007, 08:11:27 AM »
And then I was curious about the front tire - BT-45 (100-90-19) on the K2 (drilled rotor) versus the Dunlop (110-90-19) on the K4 (buchanan rims) - see pics below


K2 - BT-45


K4- Dunlop - this tire had to be squeezed to get fast the fender - works fine once on.

Cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline frostypuck

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2007, 08:20:58 AM »
You just like showing off your shiny brake drums and fancy drilled rotors. :P
Much like I was saying before, technically, the height difference should be 9mm,(per others' math), but it looks closer to an inch, or maybe more, once mounted on the rim. 9mm is probably not noticeable to the naked eye. When I had both tires side-by-each off the bikes, the axle of the shorter wheel/tire combo passed cleanly under the 120/90's axle.
Just saying...
Chris in Boston
Boston, MA, USA

Offline tsflstb

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2007, 10:03:37 AM »
Just joining in the picture fest...here's a 110/90/18 BT-45 mounted on my 400F.  I think it's supposed to be a 100/90/18 from the factory, but this seems to work well.


drlarryw

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2007, 10:38:22 AM »
So Andy and other experts.  No one so far has discussed the consequences/impact of greater height, actually diameter, of the 120 vs. 110 rear tire on.....handling, braking, safety,etc.  If the 120 has a pointier profile [being "pinched" by narrow rim], than the 110, what is the seat-of-pants difference?

Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2007, 11:26:05 AM »
Ill tell you in a couple of weeks Larry when the snow melts  ;) - Ill compare cornering with the BT-45s and let you know handling goes. Cant wait for this road test.

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline scondon

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2007, 11:51:18 AM »
Andy750, What size rear tire are you running on your K4 in conjunction with the 110/90/19 front?   I've got a '78 Lester front rim for my '78 750 project that is 2.15 wide(same as stock rear) and am a little leary of fitting a 100/90/19 tire to it.
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Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2007, 12:03:56 PM »
Scondon,
That particular K4 has Buchanan rims and so may be a little different from stock - not sure as thats how I got them. Anyway on the rear its a matching Dunlop (both K591s) - 120-90-18 - this thing really handles corners well although it does feel a little "square" if you know what I mean. Pics of both tires below


front


rear



Rear compared to the BT-45

cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline scondon

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2007, 12:15:11 PM »
  Thanks Andy.  I was wondering how the 110 front might affect handling in the turns but it sounds like yours does OK. I also run the 120 in the rear ( 1 size over stock recomended 110 ). Nice to have some info before shelling out $$ for tires :)
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Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2007, 12:28:51 PM »
Scondon, to be honest with the cafe bike I went down a size back to stock as my personal preference for handling. But try and see it for yourself. Ill post a report on the cafe K2s new tires when I get to ride it - snowing right now :-(

cheers
Andy
Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2007, 12:32:20 PM »
So Andy and other experts. No one so far has discussed the consequences/impact of greater height, actually diameter, of the 120 vs. 110 rear tire on.....handling, braking, safety,etc. If the 120 has a pointier profile [being "pinched" by narrow rim], than the 110, what is the seat-of-pants difference?

It is going to be very hard to get quantifiable data from the oversize tire crowd.  The "effects" are much more pronounced from the psychological side of the brain rather the objective data, analytical side.  It is amazing how much the "seat-of-the-pants" data is conditioned by the human brain. There are too many re-calibrating factors between the two areas of the body.  This is no insult, this is human psychology.

Personally, I'll take engineering data and/or track times over statements like; "This new oversize tire feels way better than the age-hardened, worn out, squared off, stock sized tire, on my low speed drive to the corner store, over patched or resurfaced roads of unknown composition with unknown substances on them, compared to when I last drove this bike 4 months ago."

Also, how do you take into account the skill of the rider?  If he actually tests the limits of traction, the consequences of exceeding it are costly, vintage parts mangled, if not rider injuries.  And, then if it was an on-the-street-failure, was it really the tire?  Was the bike set up correctly, or a mismatch of the tire rubber compound to that particular road composition?

Given the road, machine, and human variables, if a rider looks at his bike with a wider tire, and then thinks he must have more traction, he may well simply ride it more aggressively, possibly nearer to the limits of traction.  How do you find the actual limits of each tire size?  The average rider doesn't really want to know.  He just wants the performance edge beyond his needs.  Most seem to be happy with a psychological "advantage".  It's really only the racers that find the performance advantages in tires.  And these change from track to track.

If you "need" maximum traction you will be replacing tires very often as the tire rubber composition changes (outgasses) with time, use, and heat cycles.

If you "need" a wide tire. Get one.  Any new tire that fits onto your bike is better than your old one.

Personally, engineers are more likely to recommend a tire for scientifically supported reasons.  Salesmen will recommend a tire where they can make a profit.  Bigger tires usually have more profit in them than smaller ones.  There is an amazing amount of mythos that goes along with wider tires.  Especially for a bike technology over 25 years old.

Cheers,

I'm sure someone feels insulted here, but that wasn't an intent.  If anything, it's a plea for objectivity and meaningfull data.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline andy750

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2007, 12:51:49 PM »
No insults here Llyod as I always enjoy your posts. I think as you have pointed out it in your own post it is hard not to be subjective in our reports of tires, handlebars, etc etc. I think forum readers are looking for opinions based on experience and when they can get it, scientifically tested data, and when this is lacking in rigour, photos always help  - there is no match for actual experience in testing these things for yourself however. My oversize tires on my Buchanan rims may feel square to me but fine to someone else. As long as the bike is safe to ride and can be used for its intended purpose then many variations will work. Science works multiple ways.

Anyway enough typing, I have to go do some real science and check my digested DNA  ;)

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

Where did you go on your bike today? - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.2350

Offline scondon

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2007, 12:55:02 PM »
Scondon, to be honest with the cafe bike I went down a size back to stock as my personal preference for handling. But try and see it for yourself. Ill post a report on the cafe K2s new tires when I get to ride it - snowing right now :-(

cheers
Andy


  Thanks again, Andy. I'm still pulling info from as many sources as possible before making up my mind as to which size tire to put up front. I'd like to stick with the 100/90 but visions of it peeling off the wider rim at 100mph keep haunting me. A couple people have said I'll be OK going 1 size under but have yet to talk to anyone that has actually done it on their own bike.


Personally, I'll take engineering data and/or track times over statements like; "This new oversize tire feels way better than the age-hardened, worn out, squared off, stock sized tire, on my low speed drive to the corner store, over patched or resurfaced roads of unknown composition with unknown substances on them, compared to when I last drove this bike 4 months ago."


 :D :D Really missed ya those months you were absent, TT  :D :D
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Offline frostypuck

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2007, 04:36:21 PM »


Anyway enough typing, I have to go do some real science and check my digested DNA  ;)

cheers
Andy



Sounds good, I only had a cheeseburger for supper.
Chris
Boston, MA, USA

Offline Spikeybike

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2007, 06:33:35 PM »
Personally, I'll take engineering data and/or track times over statements like; "This new oversize tire feels way better than the age-hardened, worn out, squared off, stock sized tire, on my low speed drive to the corner store, over patched or resurfaced roads of unknown composition with unknown substances on them, compared to when I last drove this bike 4 months ago."

good ol' TT killin um with science.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Tire FYI-how wide is wide?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2007, 07:31:02 PM »
You just like showing off your shiny brake drums and fancy drilled rotors. :P

Yeah... what he said. ;)
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