Author Topic: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?  (Read 1258 times)

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Offline soonerbillz

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What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« on: September 07, 2023, 06:35:46 AM »

This right here folks is why you shouldn’t run ethanol fuel in carbureted engines.


Offline HondaMan

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2023, 08:18:18 AM »
Yep, what you are looking at is the surface etching from MTBE fuels in the 1990s, which compromised the typical zamac or aluminum-copper alloy used in carbs, followed by the extreme drying action of today's ethanols. It oxidizes the surface of the metal. This is essentailly a form of rust, just not iron oxide rust. Once it is thoroughly cleaned off, the ethanol alone cannot further attack it: it was the MTBE that dissolved the surface so the ethanol could eat it.

This was all planned, BTW: a fellow biker (he rode Kawis) who used to work for the EPA in the 1990s quit and wrote a book about it. If I could remember the name of it, I'd put it up in a post: I read it once and passed it on, circa 2004 or so, to other bikers at the time. The plan was to damage/destroy the carbs of normally-aspirated engines slowly over time to force people into using fuel injection, all to reduce emissions in cities.

One [short, 2 page] chapter in the book was "Mitigations". It mentioned that the acid nature of MTBE could be neutralized almost completely by adding some oil to the gasoline. The chapter came from the complaint of some of the EPA scientists who noted that 2-stroke engines (bikes, chain saws, etc.) would not suffer carb damage sufficiently to lose function: the retort was that 2-stroke engines don't last as long as 4-stroke, so it would resolve itself in "the fleet of vehicles" wearing itself out while 2-stroke makers would be 'encouraged' to employ more conservative EFI in their designs along the way.

No, it is NOT a conspiracy theory. It was all planned in 1990-1993 at the EPA. This white powder in all carbs from the last century is the witness. too. I went with the "add oil to the gas" method beginning in 1995 (because I also worked in the oilfield before that, and knew what MTBE was like) and my bike ceased having troubles. Even today the carbs are in decent shape, despite being ridden continuously thru the 1992-2001 era of MTBE.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2023, 08:51:10 AM »
Yep, what you are looking at is the surface etching from MTBE fuels in the 1990s, which compromised the typical zamac or aluminum-copper alloy used in carbs, followed by the extreme drying action of today's ethanols. It oxidizes the surface of the metal. This is essentailly a form of rust, just not iron oxide rust. Once it is thoroughly cleaned off, the ethanol alone cannot further attack it: it was the MTBE that dissolved the surface so the ethanol could eat it.

This was all planned, BTW: a fellow biker (he rode Kawis) who used to work for the EPA in the 1990s quit and wrote a book about it. If I could remember the name of it, I'd put it up in a post: I read it once and passed it on, circa 2004 or so, to other bikers at the time. The plan was to damage/destroy the carbs of normally-aspirated engines slowly over time to force people into using fuel injection, all to reduce emissions in cities.

One [short, 2 page] chapter in the book was "Mitigations". It mentioned that the acid nature of MTBE could be neutralized almost completely by adding some oil to the gasoline. The chapter came from the complaint of some of the EPA scientists who noted that 2-stroke engines (bikes, chain saws, etc.) would not suffer carb damage sufficiently to lose function: the retort was that 2-stroke engines don't last as long as 4-stroke, so it would resolve itself in "the fleet of vehicles" wearing itself out while 2-stroke makers would be 'encouraged' to employ more conservative EFI in their designs along the way.

No, it is NOT a conspiracy theory. It was all planned in 1990-1993 at the EPA. This white powder in all carbs from the last century is the witness. too. I went with the "add oil to the gas" method beginning in 1995 (because I also worked in the oilfield before that, and knew what MTBE was like) and my bike ceased having troubles. Even today the carbs are in decent shape, despite being ridden continuously thru the 1992-2001 era of MTBE.

If I'm reading this right, then what it amounts to is that if your carbs have been thoroughly cleaned since MTBE has been replaced with ethanol, removing any traces of the old MTBE, then ethanol fuel is perfectly safe to run as long as you don't let the gas sit for weeks and weeks on end.
1982 CB650SC Nighthawk

Offline PeWe

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2023, 11:51:53 AM »
What about o-rings and other rubber?
Oil? More freqent changes?
I have heard that racers running on methanol change oil very often. Maybe after each race?

Methanol is an alcohol as ethanol.

Carbs must be rejetted when using 10% ethanol. Plus an unknown amount of water that the ethanol has bonded with that can't make any good.

I guess the tank at gas stations have condense water inside.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline fizzlebottom

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2023, 12:24:18 PM »
What about o-rings and other rubber?
Oil? More freqent changes?
I have heard that racers running on methanol change oil very often. Maybe after each race?

Methanol is an alcohol as ethanol.

Carbs must be rejetted when using 10% ethanol. Plus an unknown amount of water that the ethanol has bonded with that can't make any good.

I guess the tank at gas stations have condense water inside.

I've rebuilt my carbs in the last 5 years and haven't had any fueling issues running regular 87 octane <= 10% ethanol laced fuel. The one hassle I've run across is when I've had to take the bowls off and the bowl gaskets have swelled. I end up either letting them sit for a day or making sure I have a spare set to use.

Regarding the rejetting, I've not had to rejet at all. My bike does use CV carbs though, and that might be a wildly different story than folks with mechanical carbs.

This is all anecdotal, so I might be the only one who has been just fine with ethanol fuel as long as the carbs don't sit for weeks and weeks on end.
1982 CB650SC Nighthawk

Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2023, 01:40:51 PM »
I'm fortunate enough to live in an area with many non-ethanol pumps, but just in case I get caught short - how much oil should I be adding and what kind of oil should I use?
"All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."

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Offline rotortiller

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2023, 03:44:56 PM »
   fizzlebottom, same as you for results, no corrosion issues, nil for jetting alterations. I just don't like paying more for lower BTUs lol.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2023, 04:01:14 PM »
Yep, what you are looking at is the surface etching from MTBE fuels in the 1990s, which compromised the typical zamac or aluminum-copper alloy used in carbs, followed by the extreme drying action of today's ethanols. It oxidizes the surface of the metal. This is essentailly a form of rust, just not iron oxide rust. Once it is thoroughly cleaned off, the ethanol alone cannot further attack it: it was the MTBE that dissolved the surface so the ethanol could eat it.

This was all planned, BTW: a fellow biker (he rode Kawis) who used to work for the EPA in the 1990s quit and wrote a book about it. If I could remember the name of it, I'd put it up in a post: I read it once and passed it on, circa 2004 or so, to other bikers at the time. The plan was to damage/destroy the carbs of normally-aspirated engines slowly over time to force people into using fuel injection, all to reduce emissions in cities.

One [short, 2 page] chapter in the book was "Mitigations". It mentioned that the acid nature of MTBE could be neutralized almost completely by adding some oil to the gasoline. The chapter came from the complaint of some of the EPA scientists who noted that 2-stroke engines (bikes, chain saws, etc.) would not suffer carb damage sufficiently to lose function: the retort was that 2-stroke engines don't last as long as 4-stroke, so it would resolve itself in "the fleet of vehicles" wearing itself out while 2-stroke makers would be 'encouraged' to employ more conservative EFI in their designs along the way.

No, it is NOT a conspiracy theory. It was all planned in 1990-1993 at the EPA. This white powder in all carbs from the last century is the witness. too. I went with the "add oil to the gas" method beginning in 1995 (because I also worked in the oilfield before that, and knew what MTBE was like) and my bike ceased having troubles. Even today the carbs are in decent shape, despite being ridden continuously thru the 1992-2001 era of MTBE.

If I'm reading this right, then what it amounts to is that if your carbs have been thoroughly cleaned since MTBE has been replaced with ethanol, removing any traces of the old MTBE, then ethanol fuel is perfectly safe to run as long as you don't let the gas sit for weeks and weeks on end.
Yep, that's right: if you had just kept riding that bike thru the whole period and put some oil in the tank regularly, it would have all washed itself out without much damage except some pitting on the brass parts - which also increased the jet size slightly (like 2%-ish range). I've seen many local bikes that "rode thru it" and compared them with those that were "parked thru it" for one reason or another, and the parked ones suffered more of this kind of damage.

I've used regular motor oil, 2-stroke oil, Marvel Mystery oil, and even used motor oil (from my bike) in the tank, about 1-2 ounces per tank. The 2-stroke synthetic oils don't show any smoke nor leave any goo behind, while I can get wisps of oil around the ends of the exhaust pipes if I use regular engine oil and too much of it - much like a typical 2-stroke bike. It cleans off easily at the carwash, though.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Deltarider

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2023, 05:48:34 AM »
No oil should be in the gas tank! A little is already enough to seriously soot your combustion chambers, valves and all. 
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Offline bryanj

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2023, 06:13:32 AM »
So why did racers use castrol R in the fuel as well as oil tank
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline MauiK3

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2023, 08:06:36 AM »
We have non-ethanol here, I use it in everything.
When I had my Ruckus (49cc) I tried ethanol fuel, ran terrible, switched to non-ethanol, ran great.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2023, 08:12:30 AM »
Oil in the fuel is common for many applications, not just these older bikes. If your vehicle has a catalytic convertor of any type, oil in the fuel isn't good for the convertor (it can collect on platinum and other catalytic surfaces, reducing the effectiveness of the cat at reducing hydrocarbons). Some modern bikes have these in their mufflers, so it's not a good idea with them (BMW comes to mind, since about 12 years ago). But for these old engines with modern fuels, you'll find better performance, better MPG, much longer life and longer-lasting mufflers when using some oil. They also "park" much longer without troubles because the metal surfaces are already protected when you turn off that key for years.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2023, 08:15:04 AM »
So why did racers use castrol R in the fuel as well as oil tank

I used something like it in 4-stroke go-karts and the single-cylinder roadrace bikes (10k-12k RPM continuous running) back in the day. It raised the effective compression by making the exhaust valves seal better and you could tell immediately in the acceleration: it was stronger. It was then callled "top oil" and was sold in gas stations everywhere.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline newday777

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2023, 08:27:30 AM »
No oil should be in the gas tank! A little is already enough to seriously soot your combustion chambers, valves and all.
Been doing it for years without any damage.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline soonerbillz

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2023, 09:05:58 AM »
All those "Lucas"  fuel cleaners, additives and other like products pretty much do the same as adding a wee bit of oil to the gas.

Offline ekpent

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2023, 09:19:23 AM »
Did water ever get inside that carb you pictured ?

Offline Don R

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2023, 09:52:34 AM »
 It is not too surprising that modern efi can make use of this modern fuel but if you let them sit even injectors can plug up with bad gas. A friend has a newer Camaro and a late model GM truck that were unused, he had to have the injectors removed and cleaned or replaced on both of them.
  One of my 70's sat in a yard barn while a full tank of fuel evaporated through the carbs. They weren't that bad but after I spent two days on them my carb guy still said they were the worst he had seen.
 
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2023, 10:17:34 AM »
Did water ever get inside that carb you pictured ?

 :o :D ::)
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  I love the small ones too !
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2023, 10:23:00 AM »
The condition of gasoline out here is heavily spiked with Lots of ethanol,etc.
I always run my carbs dry by turning-off the petcock while on my way back to the residence;carbs. have lots of vents in them which causes the fuel to evaporate fast plus allow moisture from the atmosphere to get inside them..
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Don R

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2023, 04:15:23 PM »
 If that Holley won't clean up, I could sell you this one,
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline Don R

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2023, 04:28:50 PM »
  Today I emptied out a couple gas cans, 87 octane no alky, 91 octane no alky, a combo of 87 no alky and 110ll av gas.  I finished this stew with a dash of Synthetic Amzoil 2 stroke oil. The Rat Race likes it enough to drive through the clutch in third gear.

  My wife gets a discount at the local HyVee grocery store for gas at their station, one week the discount was more than the price of a gallon of 87 so I used it on 20 gallons of 91 no alcohol. 10 of that went in the dually for towing octane.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
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Offline Keith

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2023, 07:16:34 PM »
I use non ethanol high test in all my small engines and add a bit of two stroke oil to all of them. My troy built tiller sat for two years , started and idled on first pull. With ethanol I had to disassemble the carb every spring. I add the two stroke oil to my bikes too.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2023, 08:20:42 PM »
  Today I emptied out a couple gas cans, 87 octane no alky, 91 octane no alky, a combo of 87 no alky and 110ll av gas.  I finished this stew with a dash of Synthetic Amzoil 2 stroke oil. The Rat Race likes it enough to drive through the clutch in third gear.

  My wife gets a discount at the local HyVee grocery store for gas at their station, one week the discount was more than the price of a gallon of 87 so I used it on 20 gallons of 91 no alcohol. 10 of that went in the dually for towing octane.

I remember filling up my bike at that HyVee when I was passing through and stopped-in to visit you Don;that 'no alky' 87 is good fuel. My 'tow vehicle' Suzuki(now sold)only had 9:1 CR so the 87 octane was great.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Don R

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2023, 10:07:35 PM »
I use non ethanol high test in all my small engines and add a bit of two stroke oil to all of them. My troy built tiller sat for two years , started and idled on first pull. With ethanol I had to disassemble the carb every spring. I add the two stroke oil to my bikes too.
Last year my pressure washer needed ether to start, I used my bike storage gas in it and this year it started easy.
 Same with my chain saw that I've been using pre-mix canned gas in lately. It seems to run better every time I use it.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2023, 02:32:30 AM »
So why did racers use castrol R in the fuel as well as oil tank
I believe that was Ricinus Oil (Castor Oil). I remember the nice smell off it at the racetracks.
This is what I posted the other day: The common complaint is that todays unleaded gas does not give much color indication anymore. You can overcome this by adding a spoonful of castor oil to your tank which will give the color indication we used to have in the 'leaded years'.
I find adding 2T oil a strange advice. Diesel is another no no (it soots like hell). If you must, really must, then a spoonful of kerosene, but definitely NOT Diesel or 2T.
Concerning 2T oil, many in Holland who own a 2T moped, have turned away from 2T oil and now use Triboron as a substitute. It was developed in Sweden, doesn't smell and no longer blue smokes. Great product.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: What's the big deal if I use ethanol fuel in my bike?
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2023, 03:25:32 AM »
I like chili in food.
Spice up the food for the bike with a few % of nitro ;D
It might help ethanol blended gasoline?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967