Author Topic: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust  (Read 5587 times)

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Offline Scootch

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2023, 06:47:58 AM »
Is the fuel supply line or fuel fittings blocked for carb 1?

Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2023, 07:21:17 AM »
I don't think so l. When I open the drain screw, it will drain for as long as the petcock is open.
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2023, 08:32:49 AM »
Did a clear tube test - 2 and 4 were spot on, 3 a couple of mm under the bowl (which is weird because a pulled the carbs and leveled the floats less than 20 miles ago), and as for 1, dunno what to say - fuel doesn't even make its way up the tube to be parallel to the bottom of the bowl. When I agitate the tube with fast and light taps of a screwdriver, it starts pumping up the tube, and keeps going as long as I do that, higher than the carb itself?! Obviously I am doing something wrong, but can't figure out what. Usually just a flew flicks of the tube with my fingers gets the air bubbles out. Is the float too high? Too low?


Looks like a teardown...I suppose  :P
Don't be too quick to tear the engine apart!!!
You have a fouled #1 spark-plug, and a #1 carb with a fuel level problem. Like I said before, and TwoTired mentioned, the "smoke" might actually be fuel vapor. What does it smell like? Also, what was the clear tube level on 2&4 that you claim was "spot on"? It should be about 3mm below the top of the float bowl.
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Offline Cruiser

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2023, 08:42:06 AM »
Did a clear tube test - 2 and 4 were spot on, 3 a couple of mm under the bowl (which is weird because a pulled the carbs and leveled the floats less than 20 miles ago), and as for 1, dunno what to say - fuel doesn't even make its way up the tube to be parallel to the bottom of the bowl. When I agitate the tube with fast and light taps of a screwdriver, it starts pumping up the tube, and keeps going as long as I do that, higher than the carb itself?! Obviously I am doing something wrong, but can't figure out what. Usually just a flew flicks of the tube with my fingers gets the air bubbles out. Is the float too high? Too low?

Also did a compression test - 1=140, 2=150, 3=125, 4=150

Trying to get my hands on a compressor for a leak down test, will report back once I do that.

Having flushed the fuel for new fuel or replaced the oil yet, although at this point, not sure that change anything.

Looks like a teardown...I suppose  :P

Have you checked if the vent tubes are not blocked? (had a similar issue recently where I was sure I checked them when I rebuild them, but one was clogged up and it messed with the carb)
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2023, 08:52:25 AM »
Can you verify your engine oil is not gasoline diluted?

Blow by (combustion leak down) will increase with throttle opening and engine load.

Revving the engine with no load is not the best indicator for blow by.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2023, 08:53:32 AM »

Have you checked if the vent tubes are not blocked? (had a similar issue recently where I was sure I checked them when I rebuild them, but one was clogged up and it messed with the carb)
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Offline jgger

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2023, 08:54:34 AM »
If you have a squirt gun type oil can put 1 or 2 shots in that low cylinder and retest the compression. If it comes up to match the others then it could be bad rings. BUT BEFORE you do that make sure the valve clearance is not too tight. This will tell you where to focus if you do need to pull the engine.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 08:56:48 AM by jgger »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2023, 09:00:11 AM »
If you have a squirt gun type oil can put 1 or 2 shots in that low cylinder and retest the compression. If it comes up to match the others then it could be bad rings. BUT BEFORE you do that make sure the valve clearance is not too tight. This will tell you where to focus if you do need to pull the engine.
He has 140 PSI on the "bad" cylinder...
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2023, 09:02:00 AM »
You found a problem with carb over flow with vibration.  Fix that. Might be pumping raw fuel into the crankcase past the piston rings. Does your oil smell like gas?  Focus on why your carbs failed their tests.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2023, 09:05:07 AM »
 The vent tubes are something that gets overlooked. I'm sure of it, because I overlook them myself. I have a set of carbs that need to have that checked. 
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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2023, 09:10:37 AM »
Did the bike fall over when the forks collapsed?
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Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2023, 12:17:35 PM »
Don't be too quick to tear the engine apart!!!
You have a fouled #1 spark-plug, and a #1 carb with a fuel level problem. Like I said before, and TwoTired mentioned, the "smoke" might actually be fuel vapor. What does it smell like? Also, what was the clear tube level on 2&4 that you claim was "spot on"? It should be about 3mm below the top of the float bowl.

Well that is encouraging, thank you! 3mm below? I was under the impression that it was supposed to be at the gasket level...(thanks for asking). In that case, only carb #3 is set correctly, 2 and 4 too high (gasket height), and as for #1, no idea what is happening there. I'll pull the carbs and check / adjust float levels again (PD41a @12.5mm)

Not sure about the smell - it's not overwhelming whatever it is (I have to get close to the breather or exhaust to smell anything, and even then, it's not clear to me what I'm smelling, if anything).

Have you checked if the vent tubes are not blocked? (had a similar issue recently where I was sure I checked them when I rebuild them, but one was clogged up and it messed with the carb)

I have not. To be sure, on these carbs (PD41a), if I'm not mistaken, the overflow tubes are also the vent tubes (when gas is not flowing through them)? I'll give them a good clean. Otherwise, at the risk of sounding like an a**, I am not sure what you are referring to.

If you have a squirt gun type oil can put 1 or 2 shots in that low cylinder and retest the compression. If it comes up to match the others then it could be bad rings. BUT BEFORE you do that make sure the valve clearance is not too tight. This will tell you where to focus if you do need to pull the engine.

Adjusted valve clearance a couple of months ago (with very little ride time since), but will double check for good measure.

You found a problem with carb over flow with vibration.  Fix that. Might be pumping raw fuel into the crankcase past the piston rings. Does your oil smell like gas?  Focus on why your carbs failed their tests.

What is overflow with vibration (not literally, that I understand, but why does that happen)? What can I do to fix it? But now that you mention it, the last time I opened the carbs, I had a very light leak from the float housing (pretty sure it was carb #1). Tried different float needles and different orings to no avail. As it was hardly noticeable, and not something easily repairable (or is it?), I left it as is. Maybe it got worse in the meantime....
Regarding the smell of the oil - is that something that should be done when the bike is running, off but warm, cold, or does it not matter? When cold, shoved my nose as close as I could to the oil tank opening, and it does seem to have a hint of a gasoline smell... On the other hand, my sense of smell is nothing to write home about and it may have been just in my head (as in I was "looking" to smell it, so I smelled it). Anyway, it definitely was not neutral in smell (which I would expect from oil). 

Did the bike fall over when the forks collapsed?

Nope...
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2023, 12:58:34 PM »
When the vent/overflow tubes are open, any carb bowl overfills or heat soak expansions are drained to the ground.

Plug one up, the gasoline goes in the intake port or runs out the air cleaner…….?

A little gas in 20w-50 oil will thin it down. Enough will eliminate the lubricity of your oil and thin the oil to the point the oil rings have no control.

Whether the gasoline in the gasoline/engine oil suspension/solution will ever completely vaporize as will the already mentioned water does when heated, is left for the chemists. Gasoline and oil are both hydrocarbons…

If your oil smells like gas, wether  cold,warm, or hot, I’d drain it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 03:34:06 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2023, 09:00:37 PM »
To be sure, on these carbs (PD41a), if I'm not mistaken, the overflow tubes are also the vent tubes (when gas is not flowing through them)?
The brass tube that sticks up inside the float bowl is the vent/overflow. Check to see if you can blow cleaner through it from the nipple on the bottom of the bowl, with the drain screw closed.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2023, 09:08:00 PM »
By the way, once you get the carbs sorted and some clean spark plugs installed, I suspect you will be surprised by how much better it runs than it ever did before. ;D
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2023, 10:58:06 PM »
Did a clear tube test - 2 and 4 were spot on, 3 a couple of mm under the bowl .......

"Fuel level spot on" is?

Often used levels are 2-4mm under the bowl gasket.
CB750 carbs round tops might need the lower range. I have noticed overflow after a ride with hot engine, parked on side stand. Fuel swells and overflow.
Or, if fuel flow over from #2 to #1.

I got fuel inside stock airbox so I drilled small holes (2mm) in the corners so it could escape if that should happen again.

I have most often verified not too high levels.
Too low can end up in fuel starvage at higher speeds and easy to think main jet is wrong.

The 2 vent tubes from spigots on 2-3 must be free too. Might not cause fuel overflow though.

Tried fresh fuel?

My K6 suddenly got very much white smoke I noticed in the mirrors. Power loss too.
One piston had a hole.
RC 836 10.5:1

Condense inside engine and fuel can smoke more, white.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2023, 11:03:51 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2023, 08:12:55 AM »
So just a couple of updates on progress:

Flushed the tank and put fresh fuel in
Decided to clean the petcock filter while I was at it and noticed that it had quite a bit of gunk/rust on it. So my tank is rusted... One more thing to fix.

Pulled the carbs, cleaned them thoroughly (I think some of the rust made its way into the carbs as the post carb spray liquid was brownish in color).

Readjusted float levels. They were all at 14.5mm-15mm. I've seen recommendations for both 12.5 and 14.5 for this carb. After bench clear tube testing, I ended up with two at 12.5mm and two at 13.5mm, all within 2-4mm of the gasket.

Haven't started the bike yet.

Next on the to do list:
Change the oil
Change the plugs
Check valve clearance


One more thing to note, I borrowed a friend's nose and he confirmed that he also smells a hint of fuel in the oil. Does that strengthen any of the possible hypotheses?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 10:34:08 PM by Jonm99 »
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2023, 12:54:56 AM »
OK, swapped for old plugs (what I had in the bike before it starting smoking, they were relatively new anyway), and reinstalled the carbs after adjusting float levels. Started the bike, no smoke for about 5 minutes, then starting smoking again (before carb fix it smoked as soon as I started the bike). Anyway, I proceeded to put in new oil (20/50) and then let the bike sit for 24hrs. Started it up this morning and it was smoking right away, from the oil tank, from the breather, and from the exhaust. I'm pretty sure that it's gasoline (or gas fuems) making it's way into the system as the oil didn't even have time to get hot when it starting smoking. No mustard in the old oil either.

Two more things on the to do list:
Check valve clearance
Leak test

I'm attaching updated videos of the smoking gun...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VqtqcW1FNbZohUHU7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/uMPxMJsqyCEiYhSW6

Any further conclusions / suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline newday777

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2023, 04:45:29 AM »
"no smoke for about 5 minutes"

While you had the carbs off this time, did you set them on a stand and do a leak test with an auxiliary fuel tank to be sure they were not leaking?
Do you turn off your petcock each time you shut the bike off? Is your oil level rising from gas getting in the crankcase? Do you have Honda float valves in your carbs or aftermarket??
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2023, 05:41:53 AM »
"no smoke for about 5 minutes"

While you had the carbs off this time, did you set them on a stand and do a leak test with an auxiliary fuel tank to be sure they were not leaking?
Do you turn off your petcock each time you shut the bike off? Is your oil level rising from gas getting in the crankcase? Do you have Honda float valves in your carbs or aftermarket??

Regarding the carbs, yes I did. No leaks.
I do turn off my pet cock every time I shut off the bike.
Regarding oil levels, I am not entirely sure. Before having this problem, I did find my oil level to be higher than I remember filling it, but wrote it off as "I must have put too much oil in". So, either I actually put too much oil or not. In the meantime, I've put in new oil and haven't really run the bike enough for it to be noticeable.
Not sure about the floats. They "look" original, that's what was in there when I purchased the bike 4 or so years ago, and never had an issue.

I just put in new plugs (unfortunately it was DR8ea instead of D8ea (shop delivered wrong plugs, but I figured OK to install?) and I also adjusted the valves. Bike is still smoking heavily unfortunately, from the exhaust, breather, and oil tank itself. Starts easy, idles well, runs well....but it's a hell of a smoke screen behind me.

Still working on the leak test...will update soon.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2023, 06:58:04 AM by Jonm99 »
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline Scootch

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2023, 07:55:59 AM »
Are you using resistor plugs with suppression wires?

Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2023, 10:02:23 AM »
What do the new spark plugs look like? Are they fouled again?
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Offline Jonm99

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2023, 03:48:01 AM »
Plugs were not fouled. That said, I ran them for not more then 6-8 minutes. 3 and 4 look brand new, 2 light tan spot, 1 had a bit of oil on it (swiped it clean and the plug itself was not fouled). Attaching pics.

What's not clear to me is whether the issue is with gasoline (making its way into the oil system) or oil (getting through to plug #1). Or are these two unrelated issues?

The more I think about it, as the last time the bike was with the mechanics (less than 100km), they replaced the cam shaft, camshaft housings, and valve seals. Everything they touched on my bike failed, so it wouldn't surprise me that this is just one more failure. Could it be one of the valve seals (cylinder 1) that popped out of place or worped  or failed in some other way, and the result is oil down the guides into the combustion chamber resulting in an oily plug and excess smoke? On the other hand, not sure how that explains smoke from the cam breather and inside the oil tank itself... or does it?

Re the resistor plugs, I am aware these are not the ideal plugs for my bike (usually use d8ea as opposed to Dr8ea). It's what I had and I installed them temporarily just to rule them out as possible culprits of the smoking issue.

Plug #1: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tkjNB6uD7Xxxxznk8
Plug #2: https://photos.app.goo.gl/LEzBP5CKWL1ikZzf6
Plug #3: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ufZCk19VsgWtnAb27
Plug #4: https://photos.app.goo.gl/nob2NyQB1VMdvV9v6
« Last Edit: September 23, 2023, 02:03:02 PM by Jonm99 »
1977 cb750k with original airbox, PD41a carbs, slow jets=35, main jets=120, Delkevic 4in1 headers, 18" Cone engineering QC muffler, 7" headlight, dynatek ignition, ss r/r, clip ons, and ebc front brake rotor. All the rest stock, for now. First restoration, lots to learn!

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2023, 02:54:06 PM »
Have you done a compression test? A compression test can indicate worn or failed rings.
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
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Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
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                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
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                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,110931.msg1248354.html#msg1248354
                                    http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,48858.msg515204.html#msg515204
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Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

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Offline scottly

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Re: Sudden white smoke from cam cover breather and exhaust
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2023, 06:54:26 PM »
Re-do the clear tube test: you still have a problem with excess fuel getting into cylinder #1, flushing past the rings and contaminating the oil.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....