Author Topic: Defective NGK Spark plug  (Read 909 times)

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Offline Scootch

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Defective NGK Spark plug
« on: October 05, 2023, 11:51:29 AM »
I ordered 4 of these and had to wait weeks to get them. For some reason I decided to check the resistance of the center electrode. Three of the four plugs are ok. The fourth plug is defective. There should be zero resistance from one end to the other of the center electrode. As you can see in the picture the resistance is approx 3 megohms... Essentially an open circuit. Maybe best to check plugs to make sure they are what they are supposed to be. These plugs are D7EA and are not supposed to have a resistor.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2023, 05:06:46 PM »
I’ve brought this up a few times, in the past. Visit NGK’s European website. Look around and you will find a piece on how to identify “fake” NGK plugs. They are turning up all over the world and are terrible. Some fail instantly and others within a few hours. Some are NFG right from the start. The last few I had were in fact fakes, that I bought from a reputable supplier. Turns out they had several boxes of them and they were all “fakes”.

I’ve also had a few that I bought from the Canadian NGK distributor (so definitely NOT fakes) that performed as well as yours! The reality is that lots of things just aren’t as good as they used to be. Now, whenever any of my multi cylinder bikes suddenly develops a stumble or miss, the first thing I try is a plug change.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 05:08:43 PM by BenelliSEI »

Offline Scootch

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2023, 05:32:09 PM »
I am wondering if they are not legit. I bought them from Summit. I have notified them. Let's see what they say. Fake parts are showing up everywhere. Aircraft mfgs are having bogus engine parts showing up in their process. Learned a valuable lesson here. You have to check everything.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2023, 07:27:39 PM »
A possibility here, which I learned in the 1970s from a Champion Plugs rep at the time: the inside of nearly all sparkplugs consists of a metal rod from the wiring end to the middle of the plug body where it and the the engine-side center electrode (often inconel) meet a 'plug' there, on the opposite ends. In non-resistor plugs there is a metal plug installed between them (good ones are pure copper, poor ones are other metals) and in resistor plugs this is a carbon slug of "R" ohms, not unlike a wooden pencil's lead in appearance. The connection is not a 1-piece thing: it is always 3 pieces so the plug body can receive differing parts for differing heat ranges, etc. in production without changing the machinery to make differing sparkplugs.

These inner connections are mere contacts, one pressed against the other, and in brand-new plugs they are often not a perfect contact (at first), The "plan" for this is: they will arc themselves into a welded unit in just a few seconds of run-time. The better plugs out there will do this at the factory (this used to be NGK, Motorcraft and Bosch) in a final-test station of a sparkplug-building machine (I used to build equipment like that in my day job).

Today, it seems that no one is testing ANYTHING, anymore. All this is a long-winded explanation that is pointed to this last statement, which I have experienced recently as accurate: "The sparkplug's internal circuit is not completed until the plug is installed and run for a few seconds." The impurities in the contact surfaces between the 3 components arc-weld themselves together with the first application of high voltage. Then the published specs come true, like magic.

I most recently found this in a set of new plugs for my Explorer: they all measured wildly different readings with a digital ohmmeter, with much closer readings using an analog meter (but still significantly differing), and after driving them a week, the 2 I re-pulled from the engine to test showed identical ohms. This sequence of results should remind one of a very important fact to keep in mind for digital ohmmeters: they provide almost no current to the DUT (Device Under Test) due to the mass-manufactured type of integrated circuit that is used inside of them (to make them cheaply): these chips use so little current to measure ohms readings that they will not penetrate any crud of any kind (even in brand-new switches, relays, and...sparkplugs), so the erroneous readings seen when using digital ohmmeters should always be taken with a grain of salt. If you have any access to a meter-type VOM, use it instead for these sorts of tests. This is one important reason why the "old" analog meters are still out there, and still very popular.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2023, 07:41:18 PM »
I am wondering if they are not legit. I bought them from Summit. I have notified them. Let's see what they say. Fake parts are showing up everywhere. Aircraft mfgs are having bogus engine parts showing up in their process. Learned a valuable lesson here. You have to check everything.

Check the NGK website. You’ll be able to tell if they are fakes. There are some obvious signs, once you see their sample pictures.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2023, 08:07:43 PM »
Hondamans plug manufacturing process might be the answer here.

Test that plug on the outside of engine. Cyl 1 or 4, contact with vakvecover bolt or other metal. Start engine and watch the firing plug for 5 sec.

Measure again. Plug will still look new.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Online dave500

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2023, 02:39:38 AM »
dont buy plugs online full stop,they only a few bucks anyway,you mightve saved the price of a half a beer?

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2023, 03:58:52 AM »
Buy here. Save and get the real deal.  https://www.clubplug.ca/

Online dave500

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2023, 04:17:28 AM »
go to a store and buy them,#$%*?four spark plugs?its not like your fouling a V8,#$%*ing pennies?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 04:24:22 AM by dave500 »

Offline Scootch

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2023, 04:32:17 AM »
I tried to buy them local auto parts stores. They didn't have/carry them. One store wanted sell Autolite equiv. Turns out they had 5000 ohm resistor.
I will try Mark's suggestion...

Online dave500

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2023, 05:14:06 AM »
use denso if you have to,try an actual motorcycle shop.

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2023, 08:55:17 AM »
Why pay double at the bike shop. I have a JetSki  and a R6 that take (CR9EK). $20 at the local shops and 12.65 on line. CB750 DR8ES-L are $4 but  CTC sells them for $8.79 and they are $4.00 online. I have just saved 70 dollars on just these 3 machines. If you live in an area where bike shops are not so greedy maybe that would be different.

Also have two cars, 4 Kawasaki triples and another K7 to feed plugs to. Also mower, weed-wacker and sno-blower. It adds up fast and that is just for spark plugs.

I also save by using alternate sources for oil, air and oil filters, tires, brake pads and shoes etc.  The bike shops have nothing I need for antiques in both parts or expertise, actually I cringe at the idea of them even touching my #$%*. The best thing is I get the stuff delivered directly to my door and do not need to pick it up at the bike shop after they get around to putting their bi-weekly orders in.

The good thing is I no longer need ignition points and condensers anymore since I have been using a Tytronics electronic ignition since 2017 for $30,000 miles. Nothing finer than Asian made and North American displayed!

Offline Scootch

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2023, 11:02:28 AM »
This is the response I received from Summit. They are wrong about the 1k ohm. Caveat emptor...

Offline PeWe

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2023, 01:26:41 AM »
I could not resist to check some of my plugs.
10x NGK D8EA
 9x Denso X24ES-U
0 Ohm
1 or 2 plugs showed 0.4ohm but reduced after a while.
The multimeter needed some time.

I ordered some boxes of plugs before Brexit. Mostly Denso X24ES-U.
Important to short the probes to see the instrument with cabling internal resistance. My needed to be used for 15-20 minutes to go from 0.2 to 0 ohm.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Scootch

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2023, 04:47:40 AM »
There is usually a way with meters to zero out and account for the probe/lead resistance.

Offline Scootch

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2023, 05:13:32 AM »
I have some Denso X24ES-U plugs. I checked them and they are 0 ohms.
Then I noticed this FYI...

Ignition and sensor specialist NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.) Inc. has announced that effective April 1, 2023, the company name will become Niterra North America, Inc. The name change, announced late last year, will include a new corporate logo and identity as the organization follows a strategy to unify the global brand and promote efforts to transform the organization’s business portfolio. Accordingly, the global brand NGK Spark Plug Co. LTD. also will begin operating under the English tradename Niterra Co., Ltd on April 1, 2023.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2023, 06:53:10 AM »
I have plugs to CB750 for many years, lifetimes ;D

I found out that I could quickly clean them followed by a brush on outer ring and ground strap when rich jetted carbs had sooted them.

So I did not to change that often as I thought.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Quattrocilindri

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2023, 01:41:38 PM »
I am wondering if they are not legit. I bought them from Summit. I have notified them. Let's see what they say. Fake parts are showing up everywhere. Aircraft mfgs are having bogus engine parts showing up in their process. Learned a valuable lesson here. You have to check everything.

I am not surprised about your multi meter readings. I have experienced no continuity at all from tip to top. It has not happened on my 350F yet, but I have had bad, new NGK plugs for another old bike. It seemed to stop sparking on the affected cylinder. Plus, the Dyna ignition on it was making troubleshooting for no spark even more challenging. Unlike NGK, though, the equivalent Denso never gave me issues, even on an old 2-stroke Vespa, no matter how many times it became oil fouled. I could always clean them and reuse them.
If there are NGK fakes, it leads me to believe that their legendary reliability has led unscrupulous manufacturers to copy them without any regard to quality control. So, NGK is a victim of its own success. Have you ever noticed that car's NGK plugs never fail, even after 100,000 miles?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2023, 08:07:23 PM »
Ignition and sensor specialist NGK Spark Plugs (U.S.A.) Inc. has announced that effective April 1, 2023, the company name will become Niterra North America, Inc. The name change, announced late last year, will include a new corporate logo and identity as the organization follows a strategy to unify the global brand and promote efforts to transform the organization’s business portfolio. Accordingly, the global brand NGK Spark Plug Co. LTD. also will begin operating under the English tradename Niterra Co., Ltd on April 1, 2023.

Thanks for the tip-off! I've noticed I'm having trouble getting the NGK plugs at all, and the ND versions (which I prefer) have also been 'knocked off' by someone who is making poor plugs with the ND labels on them.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Online dave500

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2023, 01:44:06 AM »
buy from reputable dealers only,i have no trouble here getting ngk.

Offline PeWe

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2023, 04:08:30 AM »
I bought my last bunch of NGK and Denso 3 years ago.
https://www.gsparkplug.com
No problem with any of the tested ones.
I have used plugs from several boxes of 10 to find matching plug for each cylinder, plug gap facing towards IN-valve. 3 ported heads and 1 stock.

The plug issues have escalated lately?
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline ADW

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2023, 06:27:01 AM »
I am wondering if they are not legit. I bought them from Summit. I have notified them. Let's see what they say. Fake parts are showing up everywhere. Aircraft mfgs are having bogus engine parts showing up in their process. Learned a valuable lesson here. You have to check everything.

Check the NGK website. You’ll be able to tell if they are fakes. There are some obvious signs, once you see their sample pictures.

Can you provide an exact link or URL to the "sample pictures" you're talking about? Thanks!

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Defective NGK Spark plug
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2023, 04:45:08 PM »
https://www.ngkntk.com/newsroom/blog/emea/fake-or-not/

Note….. Niterra is new NGK Corp name.

Or Google “identify fake NGK plugs”. Tons comes up, look for NGK.sr