Author Topic: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K  (Read 16396 times)

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Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #225 on: February 12, 2024, 11:57:07 AM »
Thanks Bill, at this point I may keep it it for a few years.

The only thing that concerns me about the piston/cyl clearance is the difference in x-y axis, I guess that is to be expected.
The max difference is .001 on the x-y. 
Should that be a concern?


Taking values from each bore (y axis) and piston size:
cyl/bore clearance:
1=.0011
2=.0005
3=.0006
4=.0005




Intake Valves look good, Exhaust not as good.  Going to lap all in and see if they leak.  All valve guides are tight.

I would hate to just buy new rings, hone and still have end gaps (~0.14) like I currently have.

Do stock rings come in oversize?


« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 12:05:14 PM by denward17 »

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #226 on: February 12, 2024, 01:17:22 PM »
   So how invested do you wanna be, to go to the next o/s pistons & rings and then not do a responsible refresh of the head seems counterintuitive. Now if you just throw in a set of rings and lap the valves with a fresh set of valve stem seals and gaskets, you wouldn't be the first. How big and how deep do you wanna dig that hole?
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Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #227 on: February 12, 2024, 01:24:45 PM »
Buy one set of rings, deglaze and measure end gap in the biggest hole? Lap the valves and I bet you get another 20K miles out of it.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 01:26:37 PM by BenelliSEI »

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #228 on: February 12, 2024, 01:33:31 PM »
Buy one set of rings, deglaze and measure end gap in the biggest hole? Lap the valves and I bet you get another 20K miles out of it.
+1
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Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #229 on: February 12, 2024, 01:47:20 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate it.

Mark, what would be a responsible refresh of the head?  I didn't want to spend the $$ that I spent on the 750 last year, but I think this one is in better shape.
All the outer valve springs free lengths measure 1.57" (spec is 1.59", limit is 1.53"), inners are 1.39" (spec is 1.40", limit is 1.35").

The valve guides are all tight, all the intake valve seats look good, just the exhaust look like they need cleaning up, which I think a lap job would take care of.

Should I get new springs?

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #230 on: February 12, 2024, 02:23:16 PM »
Do the best thing that will make the engine give you consistent,reliable power for the longest time;whatever will make your engine have the biggest Smile  :) for the Longest time  ;D  ;) !
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #231 on: February 12, 2024, 02:24:33 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate it.

Mark, what would be a responsible refresh of the head?  I didn't want to spend the $$ that I spent on the 750 last year, but I think this one is in better shape.
All the outer valve springs free lengths measure 1.57" (spec is 1.59", limit is 1.53"), inners are 1.39" (spec is 1.40", limit is 1.35").

The valve guides are all tight, all the intake valve seats look good, just the exhaust look like they need cleaning up, which I think a lap job would take care of.

Should I get new springs?

I would replace the springs,if you like running high rpm's like I do  :D.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 03:03:15 PM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #232 on: February 12, 2024, 02:50:52 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate it.

Mark, what would be a responsible refresh of the head?  I didn't want to spend the $$ that I spent on the 750 last year, but I think this one is in better shape.
All the outer valve springs free lengths measure 1.57" (spec is 1.59", limit is 1.53"), inners are 1.39" (spec is 1.40", limit is 1.35").

The valve guides are all tight, all the intake valve seats look good, just the exhaust look like they need cleaning up, which I think a lap job would take care of.

Should I get new springs?

I would not replace those springs. Unless you are planning to put 100K  miles on that machine, or racing it, they will outlast all of us. Your measurements clearly indicate they have had little use.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2024, 02:52:57 PM by BenelliSEI »

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #233 on: February 12, 2024, 03:47:51 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, appreciate it.

Mark, what would be a responsible refresh of the head?  I didn't want to spend the $$ that I spent on the 750 last year, but I think this one is in better shape.
All the outer valve springs free lengths measure 1.57" (spec is 1.59", limit is 1.53"), inners are 1.39" (spec is 1.40", limit is 1.35").

The valve guides are all tight, all the intake valve seats look good, just the exhaust look like they need cleaning up, which I think a lap job would take care of.

Should I get new springs?
   Ok, just my experience (opinion), re cut all the seats, replace the exhausts (valves), get new springs, install new valve stem seals. Piece of mind is a good thing. But I can do all of that, so again how invested do YOU want to be. I did a fz750 head (my bike) about 1 1/2 yrs ago w/18k on the clock, talk about pricey, OMG. 20 valves with a replacement cost at a minimum of $27 a pop, guides no different. To do it right, just the exhaust side of the equation was over $500, valves, guides, seals, and shims. Yeeeeah, not THAT invested. So I asked myself, "How much do I really need to spend on a 80's era mass produced bike."
   In the end I found a used head (mine was damaged, whole other story) replaced 3 guides, re cut every freaking seat, found 20 useable valves (12 int's, 8 ex's) and lapped to the seats, installed new valve stem seals. Put it back together with a new piston and a fresh set of rings. It purrs like new, doesn't use a drop of oil, starts at the tap of the starter button and puts the same grin on my face for about $1000 less (minimum) had I done a more thorough job.
   I figured that I got 98% of its potential for about 25% of the cost of going whole hog. So whats the cost of the last 2%? More than I'm willing to spend.
   But to be honest and if I were you, clean it up, lap the valves in and see what you get, I'm betting it'll be perfectly fine given your budget and scope. If something pops up, you'll address it then. You wouldn't be the first nor the last to do it just that way, many have done less and been perfectly satisfied. I like John's approach, if it ain't broke, it ain't broke...
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Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #234 on: February 12, 2024, 04:22:33 PM »
I did order the Viton valve guide seals, and while on the Kibblewhite site, looked at their springs, they were cheap money and went ahead and ordered them as well...

Damn, talk about mission creep...... :)

I'm also looking at pistons kits  :-[

Is there a guide somewhere of how to clean up ports on the head and intake runners?

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #235 on: February 12, 2024, 05:41:30 PM »
   There's easier ways to make a little more power than messing (for lack of a better adjective) with the intake and exhaust tracks (just an opinion), but it's your bike, your build. There's plenty of threads on here in regards to doing just that.
   A 79-82 650 cam (least expensive, easiest) or even an aftermarket cam from the likes of web or megacycle, but keep in mind that if you go w/an aftermarket cam (springs required) you'll then need to learn how to set it up (not difficult). Use a thinner base gasket to help tighten up your compression, You've already got an aftermarket pipe, drop in a cam, get the jetting corrected and your good to go. It's your basic twist and go fun, without dropping a small wheelbarrow full of money or time into it.
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #236 on: February 12, 2024, 05:49:55 PM »
I did order the Viton valve guide seals, and while on the Kibblewhite site, looked at their springs, they were cheap money and went ahead and ordered them as well...

Damn, talk about mission creep...... :)

I'm also looking at pistons kits  :-[

Is there a guide somewhere of how to clean up ports on the head and intake runners?

 :) sounds Good Den.
I'm not sure about the most reliable/durable pistons/rings except OEM Honda NOS..  many guys on here have been installing Cruizin Image but so far I haven't.
I just love to search for and find Honda stuff  :D

I'd also like to know about an online video/guide to the best way to remove carbon,etc. and clean it all up;if your speaking about lapping he valves.. I've heard of some using a power drill  :-X
I have learned that when lapping,it's best to use fine grit and then the suction cup handle:less is more..
I have an excellent Powersports machinist an hour away..  :) so that's why I like to get the seats lightly ground and valves to match for the most consistent,durable compression numbers all the way across. Compression is power.  8)

I don't have a shop so I work out of my apartment and use a Dremel with a wire brush to clean the ports and firing zone on each cylinder head area.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 03:07:23 PM by grcamna2 »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #237 on: February 13, 2024, 05:40:57 AM »
Woke up this morning with this feeling that I needed to go ahead and re-bore, so I ordered the .25mm over piston kit from 4into1.

I used the cruizimage piston set in my 750 last year and it is running well, thought I would try a different kit this time.

Both kits made in Taiwan, so probably the same.

Offline newday777

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #238 on: February 13, 2024, 05:51:54 AM »
"Both kits made in Taiwan, so probably the same."
Very dangerous to ASSUME......
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #239 on: February 13, 2024, 05:55:47 AM »
"Both kits made in Taiwan, so probably the same."
Very dangerous to ASSUME......

Agree.....

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #240 on: February 13, 2024, 01:25:44 PM »
eBay has two sellers that Honda recommended, he said the $100 set of new oversized pistons and going 3rd over would clean up the cylinders for certain, but if you want to stay smaller then your compression doesn’t change head volume or relationship between piston bore size for your squish doesn’t change with oversized bore adds a tiny bit of volume across all cylinders… you are not going to feel it or measure it easily if at all unless you build a plate to bolt up and then seal the rings with a grease below the top of the piston top and then fill the top of the piston to measure the volume if you have the pistons below the top of the cylinder deck height. Then you measure the volume of the head with another plate and your pipette of a colored liquid dames as you did your cylinders…. There are ways to calculate but I am not that good with geometry so I go unconventional. The

Niche Cycles on eBay

https://www.ebay.com/usr/niche-cycle

has a $100$ set of new Piston kits and HondaMan/Mark recommended it to me.
eBay item

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164015904021
That’s the 3rd over kit as I have a failed Henry Abe Kit I was going to use after redoing the pistons to accept Cb750 rings std size is the 59mm diameter of the pistons
So, std bore rings for cb750…

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #241 on: February 13, 2024, 02:50:14 PM »
Spent some time today cleaning up the head and lapped the exhaust valves.

I inserted the first one I lapped, put the springs on to test with acetone for about 5 minutes, no leak.

I will ask the machine shop to see if they can pull a vacuum test on all of them when finished, or however they test them.

All valve stems, valve guides fall within spec with measurements.

The exhaust valves do have some stubborn carbon build up, I have them soaking in brake fluid overnight to see if it will loosen up.


Offline grcamna2

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #242 on: February 13, 2024, 03:11:23 PM »
Spent some time today cleaning up the head and lapped the exhaust valves.

I inserted the first one I lapped, put the springs on to test with acetone for about 5 minutes, no leak.

I will ask the machine shop to see if they can pull a vacuum test on all of them when finished, or however they test them.

All valve stems, valve guides fall within spec with measurements.

The exhaust valves do have some stubborn carbon build up, I have them soaking in brake fluid overnight to see if it will loosen up.

You've already cleaned it up nice  8)
Possibly the machinist may see the head and make you a good offer on lightly grinding all the valves/seats and a light skim of the head surface.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #243 on: February 13, 2024, 07:14:18 PM »
eBay has two sellers that Honda recommended, he said the $100 set of new oversized pistons and going 3rd over would clean up the cylinders for certain, but if you want to stay smaller then your compression doesn’t change head volume or relationship between piston bore size for your squish doesn’t change with oversized bore adds a tiny bit of volume across all cylinders… you are not going to feel it or measure it easily if at all unless you build a plate to bolt up and then seal the rings with a grease below the top of the piston top and then fill the top of the piston to measure the volume if you have the pistons below the top of the cylinder deck height. Then you measure the volume of the head with another plate and your pipette of a colored liquid dames as you did your cylinders…. There are ways to calculate but I am not that good with geometry so I go unconventional. The

Niche Cycles on eBay

https://www.ebay.com/usr/niche-cycle

has a $100$ set of new Piston kits and HondaMan/Mark recommended it to me.
eBay item

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164015904021
That’s the 3rd over kit as I have a failed Henry Abe Kit I was going to use after redoing the pistons to accept Cb750 rings std size is the 59mm diameter of the pistons
So, std bore rings for cb750…

David

David, Are you running the Niche Cycle Supply pistons yet?

Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #244 on: February 14, 2024, 07:15:00 AM »
Woke up with regrets buying the piston kit I chose, so will return it and will purchase a set of cruizinimage .5mm over standard.

The cruizinimage set that came for the 750 last year were built well and seem to be holding up well.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #245 on: February 14, 2024, 07:33:21 AM »
Denis …… since you are rethinking this, why not just put a  set of new Honda rings on the pistons you have?

Offline Mark1976

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #246 on: February 14, 2024, 09:37:21 AM »
Denis …… since you are rethinking this, why not just put a  set of new Honda rings on the pistons you have?
+1
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Offline denward17

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #247 on: February 14, 2024, 11:03:11 AM »
^I did think about it, but after measuring the bores for the 5th or 6th time, I am seeing some taper or some differences in the x-y axis, with 1 of them being .0010 variation.

After seeing the difference in x-y, I decided just to re-bore with new pistons.  This makes me feel a lot better about the end result.

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #248 on: February 14, 2024, 12:22:52 PM »
That makes sense.

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Another project-1976 Honda CB550K
« Reply #249 on: February 14, 2024, 02:17:36 PM »
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.