Author Topic: Milkshake oil cap  (Read 878 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Dunk

  • Expert
  • ****
  • Posts: 932
Milkshake oil cap
« on: November 28, 2023, 05:32:43 PM »
30* this morning for my commute. Warmed up above freezing in the day but damn cold for the ride home, and so begins the winter of milkshake building up on the oil cap. You guys all have the same issue? Any way to eliminate or reduce it?

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,844
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2023, 06:15:30 PM »
 Just try to get the oil hot once in a while, I'm not sure how when it's 30* though.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,802
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2023, 06:22:26 PM »
It comes from the engine not getting the oil hot enough: my own 'solutions' to this might not be yours, but here goes --

1. Use lighter oil for the cold weather. Once upon a time Castrol made a 10w50 version of their famous XLR (which was their 20w50 made just for this bike) that was their first "GTX" oil. Today, though, this same-label GTX oil has lots of detergents in it, so it makes the foaming worse AND causes clutch problems. So, using 20w40 oil may be the next step 'down', which I would do: here I would use the Shell Rotella Diesel-rated oil (low to no-detergent).
2. Use hotter sparkplugs, like X22ES-U or D7EA. Though only slight, this will warm the engine up a bit faster and help burn off the gas that won't burn because it is cold.
3. {I can do this, many can't...] install the Vetter Lowers on my fairing. This helps a LOT. I like 'em, too... ;)
4. In the 1970s, in the Chicago area, some riders would block off one pipe's exhaust of each side for the cold season. The methods varied from (black painted) wood plugs to custom-made steel plug inserts. This holds the exhaust a bit longer in the exhaust ports, helping to warm the engine. It seemed to work whether they were riding the expressway or just in-town stop-and-go. I never tried it, but saw it quite often. It also helped reduce the froth in the oil tank.

I usually rode mine hard at least twice a week (which brings up the topic of gauntlet gloves...) in cold weather when I commuted to work with it (didn't have a car then, [ex-]wife was always using it) for 10 miles or more: this, plus the lighter oil, kept the froth away pretty well.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline BenelliSEI

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,863
  • 1969 cb750
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2023, 08:36:00 PM »
It would be interesting to see what the oil temperature is running at? Maybe one of those caps with a temp. gauge built in? When you know the temp, a “sock” over the finned filter housing would help raise the temp?

Offline newday777

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,225
  • Avatar is my 76 K6 in Colorado w/Cody on back 1980
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2023, 03:34:02 AM »
30* this morning for my commute. Warmed up above freezing in the day but damn cold for the ride home, and so begins the winter of milkshake building up on the oil cap. You guys all have the same issue? Any way to eliminate or reduce it?

What oil and weight are you running?
What distance is the commute??
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline calj737

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,020
  • I refuse...
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2023, 08:09:08 AM »
Use Amsoil motorcycle specific oil and be done with it.
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,545
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2023, 08:55:20 AM »
I have seen that many times when weather is colder and wetter.
Condense in tank.
Same on my car's oil caps.

The oil itself did not look like that ;D
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,854
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2023, 10:13:34 AM »
Drop a gear and disappear….😁
Age Quod Agis

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,854
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2023, 06:23:54 PM »
30* this morning for my commute. Warmed up above freezing in the day but damn cold for the ride home, and so begins the winter of milkshake building up on the oil cap. You guys all have the same issue? Any way to eliminate or reduce it?

Short and sweet article about diesel oil in gas engines…
It may help you do your own research and decide what is really best and readily available for your application.

Don’t be mislead…

Note how low the antifoaming additive is and how high calcium levels (detergent) are in diesel oils…

Rotella’s T4 oil analysis is the next link. With over 2300+ppm Calcium (Detergent) you’ll probably only find a few with “higher detergent levels”…some of AMSOIL’s offerings come to mind with higher detergent levels around 2500..

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/diesel-oil-in-gasoline-engine/

https://pqia.org/shell-rotella-t4-sae-15w-40-heavy-duty-diesel-engine-oil/

Thought you would like the chocolate shake analogy…😁
Age Quod Agis

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,545
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2023, 10:39:30 PM »
Very interesting article about oils vs application and the different  type of ZDDP in gasoline vs diesel engines.

- What about Twin oils?
A Harley can have almost double stroke as a CB750.

If each stroke get a splash of oil to lubricate the bore, rings and wristpin/rod bearing. Oil film must last during the entire stroke.

The piston speed will be higher in a specific rpm compared to an engine with shorter stroke, much shorter.

That oil must be a good thing even for a CB750, right?
Long lasting oil film must be a good thing for valve guides too.

Spectro Harley oil has been mentioned on this forum as a good example.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 12:46:45 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline newday777

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,225
  • Avatar is my 76 K6 in Colorado w/Cody on back 1980
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2023, 12:00:26 AM »
30* this morning for my commute. Warmed up above freezing in the day but damn cold for the ride home, and so begins the winter of milkshake building up on the oil cap. You guys all have the same issue? Any way to eliminate or reduce it?

Short and sweet article about diesel oil in gas engines…
It may help you do your own research and decide what is really best and readily available for your application.

Don’t be mislead…

Note how low the antifoaming additive is and how high calcium levels (detergent) are in diesel oils…

Rotella’s T4 oil analysis is the next link. With over 2300+ppm Calcium (Detergent) you’ll probably only find a few with “higher detergent levels”…some of AMSOIL’s offerings come to mind with higher detergent levels around 2500..

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/diesel-oil-in-gasoline-engine/

https://pqia.org/shell-rotella-t4-sae-15w-40-heavy-duty-diesel-engine-oil/

Thought you would like the chocolate shake analogy…😁

Dunk hasn't said what oil he is running 🤔 why are you injecting this??
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,854
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2023, 06:27:00 AM »
Very interesting article about oils vs application and the different  type of ZDDP in gasoline vs diesel engines.

- What about Twin oils?
A Harley can have almost double stroke as a CB750.

If each stroke get a splash of oil to lubricate the bore, rings and wristpin/rod bearing. Oil film must last during the entire stroke.

The piston speed will be higher in a specific rpm compared to an engine with shorter stroke, much shorter.

That oil must be a good thing even for a CB750, right?
Long lasting oil film must be a good thing for valve guides too.

Spectro Harley oil has been mentioned on this forum as a good example.

Very Good points….

A Canadian engineer has an oil test blog/forum he updates regularly. Most don’t read that far to understand that..
He goes by Rat 540. His blog is a very very long read…you PeWe will understand all of it….

Diesel oils don’t score very high in maximum load failure pressure…usually around 70,000-80,000 psig.  Where as the latest Quaker state offering is near double that near or around 152,000psig. But diesels have very very large bearings and journal sizes.. it’s not uncommon for main bearings with 4.750 diameters and over 2 inches wide..so area wise the oil still has less load per area than the smaller rods and main of the modern fuel squeezers of today using the higher load cap oils…

Rat 540 offers free oil testing I believe. I think you send your oil to him and he tests it and publishes his finding on his blog. He’s got a full time job so I’m not sure of the turn time. I’ve never had him test any oil for me. Our local oil labs here can do the same..his test results of the popular oils seem to go near hand in hand with our labs here. Very close but a few psig and ppm either way..

The dry sump as Honda designed for the 750sohc is a good design for countering air entrainment(foaming). If the oil tank and hoses were clear you could see the oil with more air entrainment (lower specific weight) will be at the top and the heavier oil will be closest to the bottom..oil pans and oil pickups are designed for the same but are not as efficient…remember though it’s not uncommon for a slow turning (2300 max rpm) large diesels to have 9-9.5 gallons of oil in the pan and 1-3 gallons of oil in its filter(s) depending on applications. Even with the diesel’s high volume oil pumps, I believe you will find the cyclical oil cycles are less than the smaller gas engines with smaller oil capacities..

Your concerns with cylinder oil film strength has always been addressed in diesels as it is now in modern engines. Although the oil jets primary purpose is piston cooling it does a good secondary job of keeping piston components lubed and cooled and oil washing down the cylinder walls…

Bearing clearances are another application specific concern. Most SOHC Hondas don’t roll up to the line warmed up with an oil pump capable of maintaining 120# at a fast idle..Nor is the upper rod and lower main bearings halves going to be changed every pass or so..
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 11:28:49 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
Age Quod Agis

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,545
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2023, 10:36:44 AM »
Very interesting article about oils vs application and the different  type of ZDDP in gasoline vs diesel engines.

- What about Twin oils?
A Harley can have almost double stroke as a CB750.

If each stroke get a splash of oil to lubricate the bore, rings and wristpin/rod bearing. Oil film must last during the entire stroke.

The piston speed will be higher in a specific rpm compared to an engine with shorter stroke, much shorter.

That oil must be a good thing even for a CB750, right?
Long lasting oil film must be a good thing for valve guides too.

Spectro Harley oil has been mentioned on this forum as a good example.

Very Good points….

A Canadian engineer has an oil test blog/forum he updates regularly. Most don’t read that far to understand that..
He goes by Rat 540. His blog is a very very long read…you PeWe will understand all of it….

Diesel oils don’t score very high in maximum load failure pressure…usually around 75,000-80,000 psig.  Where as the latest Quaker state offering is near double that near or around 140,000psig. But diesels have very very large bearings and journal sizes.. it’s not uncommon for main bearings with 4.750 diameters and over 2 inches wide..so area wise the oil still has less load per area than the smaller rods and main of the modern fuel squeezers of today using the higher load cap oils…

Rat 540 offers free oil testing I believe. I think you send your oil to him and he tests it and publishes his finding on his blog. He’s got a full time job so I’m not sure of the turn time. I’ve never had him test any oil for me. Our local oil labs here can do the same..his test results of the popular oils seem to go near hand in hand with our labs here. Very close but a few psig and ppm either way..

The dry sump as Honda designed for the 750sohc is a good design for countering air entrainment(foaming). If the oil tank and hoses were clear you could see the oil with more air entrainment (lower specific weight) will be at the top and the heavier oil will be closest to the bottom..oil pans and oil pickups are designed for the same but are not as efficient…remember though it’s not uncommon for a slow turning (2300 max rpm) large diesels to have 9-9.5 gallons of oil in the pan and 1-3 gallons of oil in its filter(s) depending on applications. Even with the diesel’s high volume oil pumps, I believe you will find the cyclical oil cycles are less than the smaller gas engines with smaller oil capacities..

Your concerns with cylinder oil film strength has always been addressed in diesels as it is now in modern engines. Although the oil jets primary purpose is piston cooling it does a good secondary job of keeping piston components lubed and cooled and oil washing down the cylinder walls…

Bearing clearances are another application specific concern. Most SOHC Hondas don’t roll up to the line warmed up with an oil pump capable of maintaining 120# at a fast idle..Nor is the upper rod and lower main bearings halves going to be changed every pass or so..
Interesting and important details about oils. I did not know differences between ZDDP in diesel vs gasoline motor oils.

2018 we had a hot summer, my bike's oil tank temp gauge often showed 120*C which is start of the red area.

So I searched about oil temps and when its too hot. One way to find out more was air cooled Porsche forums.

I found an interesting thread were    the viscosity was in focus and how fast it can degrade.

Its effect on valve guides,  different kind of crank designs, high and low oil pressure.

Interesting read about oil viscosity, film strenght and pressure. Not air cooled, but interesting and valid for engines in general.
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/1041459-engine-oil-and-last-century-porsche-road-engines-some-light-reading.html

Scroll down to
Engine Oil & Last Century Porsche Road Engines , some light reading

It is the post 12-31-2017, 11:38 PM #1  by JET951 that is extra interesting.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 10:57:19 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline HondaMan

  • Someone took this pic of me before I became a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,802
  • ...not my choice, I was nicknamed...
    • Getting 'em Back on the Road
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2023, 07:48:02 AM »
Very interesting article about oils vs application and the different  type of ZDDP in gasoline vs diesel engines.

- What about Twin oils?
A Harley can have almost double stroke as a CB750.

If each stroke get a splash of oil to lubricate the bore, rings and wristpin/rod bearing. Oil film must last during the entire stroke.

The piston speed will be higher in a specific rpm compared to an engine with shorter stroke, much shorter.

That oil must be a good thing even for a CB750, right?


That long stroke is one reason why Harleys don't get the mileage between rebuilds that the SOHC4 engines do. There used to be a Harley custom shop next door to the machine shop I use (the owner was Japanese-American named 'Axel' who grew up working on the SOHC4 Honda assembly lines) and their main business was rebuilding the V-Twins. Axel said they averaged 30k miles between top-end rebuilds, with smoking being the primary indicator of need for new bores and pistons/rings. The rest of the bottom ends will go 100k, though.

I tried "V-Twin" oil (Valvoline) in my 750 once, I think it was around the time I wrote the book. I changed it on Sunday, rode to work on Monday, and after fighting for gears (ANY gear) on the way home I drove my car until the next weekend when I got some Bel-Ray again. Much like with the Valvoline "Motorcycle" oil, the gearbox got so stiff I couldn't shift.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,545
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2023, 09:29:53 AM »
My CB750's got smooth shifting with Spectro HD mineral, Eurol Twinlube synthetetic and Red Line  motorcycle oil ester synth. All 20W-50.
The Red Line cost some.

My K2's last oil  was Spectro, it worked and looked well until I changed it after 5500km. (I forgot to change due to rides in the name of Frank. 1000km later than planned)
It still looked rather thick on dipstick, not as a crashed oil with very low viscosity as mixed with naphta.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,854
Re: Milkshake oil cap
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2023, 01:57:54 PM »
My CB750's got smooth shifting with Spectro HD mineral, Eurol Twinlube synthetetic and Red Line  motorcycle oil ester synth. All 20W-50.
The Red Line cost some.

My K2's last oil  was Spectro, it worked and looked well until I changed it after 5500km. (I forgot to change due to rides in the name of Frank. 1000km later than planned)
It still looked rather thick on dipstick, not as a crashed oil with very low viscosity as mixed with naphta.

I think he’s tested your oil. It’s a long read. I may see if it’s organized on a Mac. It doesn’t appear to be searchable on an iPad.

Below is the Harley and Porsche offerings.
Age Quod Agis