Author Topic: AGM charging  (Read 611 times)

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Offline Don R

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AGM charging
« on: December 02, 2023, 08:39:16 AM »
 I saw an ad for a device that plugs into a Toyota fuse panel that tricks the charging system to up the voltage a little to better charge AGM batteries.
 I don't want to begin an oil type voltage thread but thought it was an interesting gadget that got me curious about raising my charging voltage.
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Offline newday777

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2023, 10:34:00 AM »
I've never seen one
Stu
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My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
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Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
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New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
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Offline PeWe

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2023, 11:21:48 AM »
Oil thread? Oh yes!!

I have read about AGM batteries slightly higher charging voltage.
GEL batteries the other way, lower voltage.

I have tried to adjust the CB750 stock regulator for max voltage as 14.2V for GEL battery

It often ended up in the higher setting never kicked in, max 13.6V or so.

Issue when I tried to adjust for  14.8V for the AGM battery.
It could often charge  +15V.
I had worries about the Dyna-S.

One ride with crazy charge running wild +16V not fun 70km away from home. I had to use hi beam, blinkers and brake light to keep it down. I learned the hard way how to adjust.
The sudden running wild charge when core gap was +0.9mm

Max voltage up to 14.7 is stable and will not enter the +15V range.
A voltmeter between the speedo and tacho is a good thing.

A too high setting can show after an hour long ride in good speed or more.

Stock regulator can be adjusted for charging voltage of 14V around 3000rpm. Core gap 0.8mm is what I have found is good.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 09:13:03 PM by PeWe »
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Online grcamna2

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2023, 11:28:51 AM »
Good thread  8)
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Offline willbird

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2023, 01:44:36 PM »
Noco genius chargers have an AGM setting. I have the mower battery on one that is set to normal battery and my bike is on another one set to AGM.

Bill

Offline HondaMan

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2023, 03:21:36 PM »
I saw an ad for a device that plugs into a Toyota fuse panel that tricks the charging system to up the voltage a little to better charge AGM batteries.
 I don't want to begin an oil type voltage thread but thought it was an interesting gadget that got me curious about raising my charging voltage.

Does it also mention current-limiting mode while running as an AGM charger? If it does, then it's useful. This technology helps to keep from heating the plates in AGM types if they get drained too far and then charged with a too-high voltage (aka a too-big charger). I used to build units like that back in the 1970s, out of our 'snowmobile chargers', that were modified bike trickle chargers (2 amps that could surge to 6 amps if the battery resistance was low enough). The general idea was to limit how much current could flow while trying to overcome stubborn electrolytes and things like frozen battery cells: this would happen when the battery was too low and the snowmobile was parked outside on sub-zero nights. My "magic" chargers (that's what the sale guy called them) would keep raising the voltage until the current reached a useful charging rate (like 250mA) and stay there until the voltage began to fall again, which indicated the liquid was melting again. It worked, after a fashion.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 06:49:51 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Online grcamna2

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2023, 03:54:20 PM »
Which brand/model reg/rect. is best to install in my bike for AGM's so it will get past 14vts consistently ?
I see they need higher charging voltage to keep 'em 'hot'.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 06:15:59 PM by grcamna2 »
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Offline Don R

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2023, 03:55:42 PM »
 It reminded me of when I bought an optima battery, the counter guy said I needed an optima charger too. I asked if I also would need an optima alternator? He looked puzzled and said good point.  I'm thinking my chargers with agm settings are helping my agm's last now. When my rider gets its Hondamatic charging system I'll put the voltmeter back on and play with it a little.
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Offline Don R

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2023, 03:57:25 PM »
 I'd think any automatic charger with an AGM setting would be helpful. I ended up with both a small optima charger and a large one (long story) that both work well.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2023, 05:56:52 PM »
If you have an old Ni-Cd type charger that will reach 12.8 volts, that will work, too. I happen to have an old one from the Toros mowers (1980s era) that had a starter and battery. It will charge the typical 750 Honda type battery to 12.9 volts if you turn its timer all the way to 18 hours. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline PeWe

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2023, 09:36:04 PM »
The charging voltage vs current is puzzling.
The charging recommendations I have found are usually max 1/10 of the battery capacity which is 14Ah/10=1.4A.

My CTEK MXS 5.0 charger has AGM mode, but not current limit as its motorcycle mode of 0.8A (14.7V)
Specified current for batteries of 14Ah and up is 5A (14.8V), AGM mode same.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 09:40:23 PM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline MauiK3

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2023, 07:03:11 AM »
some of the newer smart chargers will report no battery if the voltage is just a little bit low, like just under 12v. then you have to override the smart part and go old school.
I wonder sometimes how good the newer smart stuff is if they don't work unless things are perfect.
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Offline Don R

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2023, 10:44:26 AM »
 I have had to jump a battery to make the new style chargers recognize that it's hooked up.
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Online bryanj

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2023, 11:51:16 AM »
When they removed the antimony from lead acid batteries to make them "low maintenance" (stopped them gassing as much) we found that if voltage on a 12v was low it may have to go to 20v to start charging
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2023, 11:54:24 AM »
The charging voltage vs current is puzzling.
The charging recommendations I have found are usually max 1/10 of the battery capacity which is 14Ah/10=1.4A.

My CTEK MXS 5.0 charger has AGM mode, but not current limit as its motorcycle mode of 0.8A (14.7V)
Specified current for batteries of 14Ah and up is 5A (14.8V), AGM mode same.


Speaking as one who had to design such chargers in the past, it is a bit of tomfoolery to get the various types to charge correctly, especially if they are dead - or if they were just built in the factory.

The old lead-acid type will charge with anything of a higher voltage that is attached to it, even another battery. This can reach dangerously high currents in certain situations, too, if the charged-up battery is a high-capacity (big amp-hours) and the dead one is not - like a car battery vs. motorcycle battery, with the car running: I'm sure you've heard what happened with those! If this design has enormous utility and forgiveness of abusive use, it also has the short-life issue unless the lead is pure as the driven snow. ;)

The Ni-Cd types are the most finnicky: they can only be charged with a limited amount of current of a narrow voltage range, which must start low, end at the desired voltage, and stop charging when the battery is 'full'. If the charger is left on, the battery then begins to degrade: this was part of Apollo 13's problems. In that situation, their 2 main Ni-Cd 'backup' batteries were left on chargers at Cape Kennedy by technicians who didn't read the (48-page) User Manual that the kids at CU Boulder (Colorado) wrote when they built the batteries: it said, on page 20-something, to 'never leave the charger connected when battery voltage rises above full charge'. (This Boulder group also built the fuel cell that blew up, with similar instructions that got ignored, causing the whole mishap.)

The AGM type is a flat-plate, cheaper-to-make version of the best type of battery (IMHO, which I'll get to in a minute...) that is the result of trying to retain some of the absolutely stellar performance of the closed-cell, permanently-wetted, controlled-chemistry encapsulated-chamber lead-acid recombinational battery invented by Gates Energy in the 1980s. To that end, the AGM contains thousands of tiny cells in the glass mat that do not heat up much when charged or discharged, simply because there are so many and they are all at relatively low energy. Lately this tech has been bastardized by the Chinese and we are seeing AGM batteries that can heat up enough to pop ("explode") and scatter their chemistry everywhere simply because the natural limitations on charge rate have been removed and a solid-state 'brain' has been implemented to control charge rates inside the battery. BAd choice: Chinese semiconductors are made from the garbage left over by places like Malaysia and our own Silicon Valley, so they frequently don't work as planned - almost 30% of the time, in fact. (End of rant...  >:(  )  The better- quality AGM batteries are good performers: some who have not worked with the all-time best (and my favorite) call these the best battery for their applications.

BUT...once you have worked with the famous "6-pack" wound-cell, closed-chemistry, permanently-semi-wetted, recombinant-technology Gates Energy cell (now made in Kansas by Enersys, invented here in Denver at Gates, circa 1986) you get to see what a battery can REALLY do, and then you wonder why anyone would ever want to use anything else. I have one that powers the living area of my motorhome, since 1996, that was a 'factory second' at the old Gates plant where I helped modify their old semi-manual control system into a PLC-controlled one in those days. During the startup of the new line, one battery was left in the heat-sealer too long when someone didn't remove it following an Emergency-stop test, and the top of it got a little bit melted - cosmetic damage - so they had to reject it. They let me take it! I went home and modified my motorhome's battery box a bit larger to fit it, and it's been in there ever since. It works perfectly despite not being used much out on the road in the last 10 years: sometimes I use the motorhome as a 'dry storage' space for some of the bikes I work on - like their tanks and side covers when their engines come out. You can use any type of battery charger on it, and it will self-limit on charge and discharge rates to 300 amps, but will accept as little as the 150mA solar charger that I plug into the motorhome's cigarette lighter to keep it from dying of neglect. That is a charge-turndown-ratio of [300,000/150]=2000:1, which means it would be nearly impossible for someone to overcharge one to catch it on fire, nor undercharge it so it sulphates. Instead, if it goes 'dead' it simply becomes inert until a new charge is applied, when each of its tens of thousands of tiny cell battery chemistry cells re-enjoin the trapped ions in the lead and recreate the acid chemistry. They cannot sulphate because the trapped-cell liquid instead turns to a [dirty] water of dissociated ions for lack of oxygen, awaiting some excess electrons to reform the cell. A VERY cool bit of tech. ;)

See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2023, 11:56:55 AM »
When they removed the antimony from lead acid batteries to make them "low maintenance" (stopped them gassing as much) we found that if voltage on a 12v was low it may have to go to 20v to start charging

Yep, that higher voltage burns off some oxygen molecules to restart the oxidation cycle that etches the lead surface to free ions for charging with. ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MauiK3

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2023, 12:17:52 PM »
So maybe I missed it, are there any commercially available batteries using the Gates design?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2023, 05:34:20 PM »
So maybe I missed it, are there any commercially available batteries using the Gates design?

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: AGM charging
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2023, 07:08:04 PM »
So maybe I missed it, are there any commercially available batteries using the Gates design?
There was, at one time, a knock-off of it sold by a Mexican outfit and sold under the Excelite and Accel labels and later, after Sears closed, briefly with their old Diehard: rumor was that when Gates sold it to Enersys the Spanish-speaking floor team manager at Gates went to Mexico and helped some engineers there to knock off a similar design. It started out OK for about 2 years around 2000 or so (the Diehards later than that), and then they began mis-winding the cells and letting them pass QC tests anyway (they are quite difficult to manufacture correctly!). That causes the technology to fail, and quickly: the batteries disappeared about 6 months after those started appearing in my local O-Reilley's store here. You could see it by looking at the tight-fitting battery case: the improperly-wound ones would have bulges here and there. The case is supposed to hold the tightness of the windings together as part of the design. The battery terminals were vertical with holes and battery bolts instead of the horizontal versions normally used, looking much more like an oversized CB550 battery than a CB750 type.

During that time they sold one for the 750 that would fit if you removed the rubber cushions in the battery box, and pressed hard, then lived with the 1/2" too-tall top of it: it stayed in place without a strap, though. It looked like real tall versions of "D" cell batteries when looking at the case.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com