Author Topic: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...  (Read 1606 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2023, 10:56:56 AM »
You can balance perfect all you want but when it seats a bit differently on the crank then on the balance mandrel things will change. To know best (applied dynamics aside) the rotor needs to be true'd for the balance device and then DTI'd on the crank. Static rotor balancing will be fine for these bikes in the right hands if reducing rotor mass  (it's not rocket science either) and no need for high speed dual plane balance say like a turbine or supercharger might require. Because every rotor and crank has tiny production variances we cannot make things perfect for mass production. If a rotor can be positioned at various radial locations on the crank, which it can, we have introduced a dynamic variable with the finished product, however small that might be. These engines as good as they are, are still low rpm clunkers, so expect some vibration from various dynamic interactions. There are so many harmonic dances going on that a perfectly applied and balanced rotor could actually increase vibrations over that of a slightly imperfect one located at a corrective position, when splitting hairs. You might (situation dependent) be able to measure this change with a dynamic balance device with the engine running and you might not, so basically most understand that a static rotor balance method is good enough for SOHC government work in these cases.
Couldn’t agree more.

Thanks for the insight, guys! While I have another 500 engine here [for the book], I plan on selling it after I'm done, so it's not a 'donor' that could borrow the [end of the?] crankshaft, or the like, for the purposes of this little project. In the end, if I could get the typical rotor to actually produce the 150+ watts these were rated, that would be enough for the bikes - they need about 95-105 watts with regular incandescent bulbs aboard and the lights always on (thanks a lot, ex-President Carter...). The trouble is that they often make 80-90 watts, in my experience, and the things that cause the 750 alternator output to drop are not the same on the 500/550 version: they start out low when new if their rotors are especially bad, and never get better. That is the #1 reason this particular bike gets parked: the owner gets tired of struggling with low battery charge and/or constant battery tending issues. On those bikes that have the better alternators I've seen their mileage roll the odometer over, like the 750, from touring America's many interstates and commuting daily to work. Even here, I think Crazy PJ has rolled his over before?

I only discovered this issue (many years ago) when a damaged 550 crankshaft had to be replaced and the donor engine for it happened to have a better rotor (and all but 1 of the same crank journal sizes!). The alternator rotor was on it and I left it there, assuming it would work: after running the bike at idle for a while the voltage was up over 13.6 volts, which I'd only ever seen on one other 550 before. The 'new' rotor was from the last of the 550F series bikes, and had a very 'automated' look to the welds, like they were done by machine and not a newbie welder. The 750 bikes after the F1 have similar-looking rotors.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline calj737

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2023, 12:59:47 PM »
Never seen runout change especially when both ends of a shaft run in bearings,
I wouldn’t apply that logic to “drive shafts”. Especially the single longer ones…
Are you referring to an automotive style drive shaft? Then true, the U joints at either end aren’t the support I’m referring to. I’m referring to a shaft running in a bearing block type of support. And considerably shorter in length (<36”).
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

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Offline bryanj

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2023, 01:33:21 PM »
This is very interesting Mark, i hope you come to a satisfactory result both output and cost.
Have a great new year mate
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2023, 04:17:38 PM »
Have you ruled out the regulators being the cause?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2023, 07:12:31 PM »
Have you ruled out the regulators being the cause?
Yes. This is a physical problem, not an electrical-circuit one. It's always been this way, with the CB500 first. I was a little disappointed when Honda brought out the 550 version with the new engine size to call attention to the transmission updates, but left the alternator out of the upgrades.

It's also the reason we sometimes see a 550 that doesn't have much electrical trouble with low voltage: those got a better rotor, I'd bet on it. Every now and then I've seen the 'good' ones on cranks during a rebuild, but they are not in the majority. Mostly these show up on the 1976 - 1978 bikes, but I have seen a couple on the earlier ones (but never on a CB500 or even a 550K1/2).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2024, 10:40:29 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MauiK3

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Re: An attempt to improve the CB500/550 alternator output...
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2024, 06:44:25 AM »
This will be very interesting
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki