Author Topic: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame  (Read 2225 times)

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Offline dragracer

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Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« on: January 23, 2024, 10:30:34 pm »
I've been knocking an idea around now for a while and have decided to implement the plan by the end of this year.

A little background first. I built my F3 dragbike over 25 years ago. I started off with a stock F3 chassis I pulled from the junk yard with a blown engine. The first order of business was to strip the bike down to nothing but a roller to check out the structural integrity of the frame since the upper rails had already been cut for easy engine removal by the previous owner.  A close inspection showed all was well so my next step was to install the old engine back in the bike with a sidewinder exhaust.  I needed to determine how much clearance was necessary from the front wheel after lowering the bike. We then cut the top backbone at the rear, heated the tubing and raked the neck a few degrees. Raking the neck would also help with high speed stability on the dragstrip.

I knew i wanted the bike as long as practical for the purpose of hard launches off the line.  I didn't want it to long because traction on an ill prepped track could become a factor.  Some thoght was given to building an arm or retrofitting an aftermarket arm. Instead, We honed in on extending the stock arm 12 inches by adding a piece of mild steel square tubing.  Shock mounts were added and i drilled 3 sets of holes so i could choose the correct ride height and suspension dampening. Of course once the rear wheel was moved back 12",
the seat pan was no longer practical for me. My focus was then on what to do about a seat pan that would extend from just behind the rear tank position to over the back tire. My only choice was to fabricate my own seat pan. I also wanted to incorporate the very end of the stock Honda pan so the taillight area would look close to stock. My intention was to use a wide rim and 180 tire so i began by cutting the stock tail piece, adding a wider section in the middle to use a  basis for the remainder of the fabricated seat pan. For the seat pan mild, i used a piece of sheet metal and hand formed it in the desired shape. I then hand layed fiberglass matting inside, tied the widened tail piece into the mold and created exactly what i needed to fit the extended chassis. I'm not a body man so i did need to add very thin layers of body filler here and there to make it look good.

Its my opinion that a properly prepared chassis is far more important than building a high performance engine. I took a lot of time thinking through the chassis setup. Once i had everything in order with the roller, my next move was to get a decent engine between the frame rails. The 1030cc was dropped in, and after a bit of tweaking at the dragstrip i made some initial high 10 second passes.  Over the years other changes were made to light up the bike by replacing the stock wheels with light weight aftermarket rims and swapping the heavy 630 chain with a 530 to drop reciprocating mass. This change put the bike into the mid 10 second zone and allowed me to begin setting records in Super Eliminator.

Fast forward to the purpose of this post. My curiosity about the ET potential of a stock engine in my proven chassis is taking hold now. I've got several parts engines laying around that can be cobbled together to make a running engine. The only internal work i may perform is rod and main bearing replacement, new riings and a fresh valve job for the head with new heavy duty valve springs.  The springs would just be insurance against valve float if its accidentally over-revved.

I intend to use stock, rejetted carbs with no filters and keep my sidewinder exhaust for obvious reasons.

So what ET prediction would all of my performance gurus care to venture with this setup? Lets hear it fellas.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 10:38:11 pm by dragracer »

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2024, 07:14:01 am »
Depends on which engine Frank. My new stock 750F0 engine ran like a scalded ass monkey until I blew it up. Maybe the spare 7000 mile F0 engine under my workbench would too? haha. No way, don't even ask! You riding obviously makes a difference. The final weight would also.

I'm going to say low to mid 12's
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2024, 09:32:13 am »
Depends on which engine Frank. My new stock 750F0 engine ran like a scalded ass monkey until I blew it up. Maybe the spare 7000 mile F0 engine under my workbench would too? haha. No way, don't even ask! You riding obviously makes a difference. The final weight would also.

I'm going to say low to mid 12's

I was thinking about the same ET Jerry. The key is being able to launch hard enough to get the best 60' time. Everything else will transfer down track except Mph.

Offline Don R

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2024, 09:46:37 am »
 Maybe some velocity stacks? There was some talk of drilling the air bleeds to help the carbs deal with the lack of vacuum in the air box. An F2 cam might help a bit, that's stock right?
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2024, 05:27:17 pm »
Maybe some velocity stacks? There was some talk of drilling the air bleeds to help the carbs deal with the lack of vacuum in the air box. An F2 cam might help a bit, that's stock right?

Don, that response triggered me. I remember having a set of PD carbs that we had on a stock motor. We did install pod filters and it had a sidewinder.  The jetting should be very close on any stock engine. We took a while getting these set up right by testing on the street and reading plugs. Now I've got to start my search for them.

Offline Don R

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2024, 07:51:31 pm »
 Awesome, I hope they work out.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline 1080

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2024, 08:56:52 pm »
What does your bike set up weigh minus motor? How much of the stock engine weight are you lighting up i.e. cut down engine covers, no alternator, no starter etc. ? It would be nice if one could make these stock engines do better than stock without the big cubes.  My brother had a 1984 Kawasaki turbo 750 it boasted 110hp stock 10.78 second 1/4 mile (I dyno it to 108hp). Just later the stock Kawasaki 750's (no turbo's) claim to do 100hp. My point is our stock single overhead cams engines lack HP. My guess high 11's to mid 12's. I wish you the best.  I will be following your endeavors.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2024, 11:31:23 pm »
What does your bike set up weigh minus motor? How much of the stock engine weight are you lighting up i.e. cut down engine covers, no alternator, no starter etc. ? It would be nice if one could make these stock engines do better than stock without the big cubes.  My brother had a 1984 Kawasaki turbo 750 it boasted 110hp stock 10.78 second 1/4 mile (I dyno it to 108hp). Just later the stock Kawasaki 750's (no turbo's) claim to do 100hp. My point is our stock single overhead cams engines lack HP. My guess high 11's to mid 12's. I wish you the best.  I will be following your endeavors.

1080, you've asked some good questions to determine the ET based on a weight /HP formula. The total bike weight now in race trim is around 435lbs. There is no onboard starter and no rotor.  The stator has been removed from the cover. Therefore,
my 1030 engine should weight less than stock bore 750. No only will i be down on horsepower but I'll adding weight to the package.

The purpose of this whole exercise is to let anyone interested in drag racing to know that you can get the best payback by concentrating your finances on setting up your chassis first.
A big cc engine in a poorly prepared chassis will be a handful and likely will not net the numbers one may expect. As the old saying goes, if you can't put the horsepower to the ground, you're simply wasting your time. As you mentioned,  our bikes are down on power. Its been my experience that we get the best performance of our engines in the first 330' of the dragstrip.  The rest of the way you're just hanging on for the ride.

Offline Don R

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2024, 08:49:29 am »
 I talked to a guy with a pro stock car, he was down on horsepower but could run side by side with the big boys for the first half of the track. Later when he rented a good engine, he realized that he didn't have the correct transmission ratios to make best use of it.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2024, 11:58:02 pm »
I talked to a guy with a pro stock car, he was down on horsepower but could run side by side with the big boys for the first half of the track. Later when he rented a good engine, he realized that he didn't have the correct transmission ratios to make best use of it.

No doubt gearing will be important to get this stock engine down the dragstrip. I'd much prefer to leave the line as hard as possible on a slower bike when bracket racing. The goal would be to put as distance between me and the quicker bike before his tree comes down. Its a distraction for the quicker buke when he looks down track and his opponent is dang near the finish line. He's either going to redlight because he's anxious to play catch up or he'll leave the line a bit harder than normal so he can run down the alower bike before the finish line and it typically results in a breakout pass. Its a psychological game to a point. Of course a seasoned rider would simply run his race without consideration of whats going on in the opposite lane.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2024, 07:01:44 am »
Here's what I found so far:

https://www.motorbikecatalog.com/performance/1969/59870/honda_cb750_four_k0.html

https://articles.sohc4.net/CB750K/72CG-CB750K2-Test.PDF

and a wealth of info from our very own site:

http://www.sohc4.com/cb750/articles/


The general consensus I've found that "back in the day" 1/4 mile times were in the 13's with seasoned riders in bone stock trim.
TAMTF...


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Offline NitroHunter

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2024, 04:23:46 pm »
I'll guess 12.40's using the air shifter.
F-2 cam is 108 lobe center, my understanding is K-0 was 104 - more overlap - and more lift.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2024, 06:19:46 pm »
What does your bike set up weigh minus motor? How much of the stock engine weight are you lighting up i.e. cut down engine covers, no alternator, no starter etc. ?

1080, you've asked some good questions to determine the ET based on a weight /HP formula. The total bike weight now in race trim is around 435lbs. There is no onboard starter and no rotor.  The stator has been removed from the cover. Therefore,
my 1030 engine should weight less than stock bore 750. No only will i be down on horsepower but I'll adding weight to the package.

For what it's worth, the stator, field coil, and late style rotor weigh a combined 9 pounds.
My Seeley weighs less than 404 pounds dry, in street trim with electric start and a charging system. ;D
 
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2024, 07:54:49 pm »
 That bike could really use a second front rotor/caliper brother.😆
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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2024, 09:46:15 pm »
That bike could really use a second front rotor/caliper brother.😆
Nope, a single 32mm two piston caliper coupled with a 320mm Duc rotor and Honda 14mm MC is more than adequate. ;D ;D
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Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2024, 11:52:41 pm »
I'll guess 12.40's using the air shifter.
F-2 cam is 108 lobe center, my understanding is K-0 was 104 - more overlap - and more lift.

This will be a junk pile engine build using whatever good parts i have on hand. An F2 cam would be nice to use since its still considered stock, but i no longer have a good one in my stash. I'm going the miserly route on this build. Its to easy for me to get caught up and go down the high performance path 🤣

Offline Don R

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2024, 09:06:54 am »
[quote author=Don R link=topic=194336.msg2273887#msg2273887 date=1706719

No doubt gearing will be important to get this stock engine down the dragstrip. I'd much prefer to leave the line as hard as possible on a slower bike when bracket racing. The goal would be to put as distance between me and the quicker bike before his tree comes down. Its a distraction for the quicker buke when he looks down track and his opponent is dang near the finish line. He's either going to redlight because he's anxious to play catch up or he'll leave the line a bit harder than normal so he can run down the slower bike before the finish line and it typically results in a breakout pass. Its a psychological game to a point. Of course a seasoned rider would simply run his race without consideration of what's going on in the opposite lane.

 True, we won a lot of races being the slow car by hitting the tree and being difficult to judge at the stripe.  Being the fast car was a learning experience we haven't totally figured out even today. We've raced a guy that goes 8.90 in the quarter but he throttle stops the top end and crosses the stripe at 140, he's a handful.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2024, 09:08:37 am »
What's the plan for the head?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2024, 05:07:11 pm »
What's the plan for the head?

I'll probably let a local car machine shop do a basic valve job with new seals and install new heavy duty valve springs. No port work, no shaving of the head or any  other work to alter the stock casting.  This engine needs to be as close to factory as possible so i can compare the  apple to the orange.

Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2024, 07:02:16 pm »
I was plundering around in one of the storage buildings today and came across enough pieces and parts to build a stock engine. I may have something cobbled together in the next 60-90 days. I'm deep into a few other projects now and trying to get ready for the new race season but this 750 project will be next in line.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2024, 06:22:39 am »
What's the plan for the head?

I'll probably let a local car machine shop do a basic valve job with new seals and install new heavy duty valve springs. No port work, no shaving of the head or any  other work to alter the stock casting.  This engine needs to be as close to factory as possible so i can compare the  apple to the orange.

Showing phenomenal restraint…!  😁
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2024, 07:21:51 am »
What's the plan for the head?

I'll probably let a local car machine shop do a basic valve job with new seals and install new heavy duty valve springs. No port work, no shaving of the head or any  other work to alter the stock casting.  This engine needs to be as close to factory as possible so i can compare the  apple to the orange.

Which head though? Earlier K, F0, F2?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline 1080

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2024, 10:03:07 am »
dragracer, I was hoping your bike would of weighted less than 400 pounds. My 1080 motor in an Amen Saviour frame weighted about what your bike weights. It did mid 11's 1/4 mile. 60 foot times around 1.5 sec. So stock motor in your frame may only get high 12's.
One thing, is a 1/4 mile now only only 1000 ft.? Or are many tracks still at 1320 feet? For the record.
I would like to see your stock motor with a base line time first. Keeping the piston bore the same. 10, 20, or 30 overbore being okay. Then progressing to higher lift cams, porting, engine weight reductions to any thing possible to try to make it faster (High dome pistons, but bore size must remain as stated). I hope the forum can help you out for parts and labour etc.

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2024, 10:18:58 am »
One thing, is a 1/4 mile now only only 1000 ft.? Or are many tracks still at 1320 feet? For the record.

1/4 mile is still 1320 feet. 1000 foot competition is now used by NHRA for top fuel dragster and top fuel funny car because those two classes are now running so fast that most tracks don't have enough shut down area to get them stopped!  8)
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Projects:
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"P.O. Debacle": http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,126692.msg1441661.html#msg1441661
F2/F3 O-rings: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113672.msg1300721#msg1300721
Cam Tower Studs: https://www.mcmaster.com/#93210a017/=t19sgp
Clean up that nasty harness: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=137351.msg1549191#msg1549191
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,148188.msg1688494.html#msg1688494
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,139544.msg1579364.html#msg1579364
                                          
Charging system diagnosis: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=1012.msg8345#msg8345
Get the manuals: http://manuals.sohc4.net/cb750k/
The Dragon: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45183.msg1571675#msg1571675
Headlight Switch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=113986.msg1283236#msg1283236
Branden's leak free top end thread: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
Engine Lifting Made Easy: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,58210.msg1684742.html#msg1684742
                                      http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1675840.html#msg1675840
Static and Dynamic Timing: http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/timing/timing1.html
Airbox Gasket Replacement: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,114485.msg1290000.html#msg1290000
"Café" : http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,84697.msg953814.html#msg953814
PD Carb Choke Linkage: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,100352.msg1669248.html#msg1669248
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Follow up on your damn posts: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,144305.msg1791605.html#msg1791605
Taiwanese Cam Chain Tensioners:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,155043.msg1774841.html#msg1774841
Gumtwo Seat Cover: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,164440.msg1897366.html#msg1897366
Primary Drive: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,166063.msg1919278.html#msg1919278
Tank Latch: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,165975.msg1919495.html#msg1919495
Shorten your forks: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-shorten-forks-td4042465.html DO NOT CUT THE SPRINGS!
Clutch How To: http://vintage-and-classic-honda-s.456789.n3.nabble.com/How-to-change-and-adjust-a-clutch-SOHC-td4040391.html
Late model K7/K8/F2/F3 front sprocket cover removal: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,178428.msg2072279.html#msg2072279
630 to 530 conversion: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180710.msg2094423.html#msg2094423

Sent from my Tandy TRS-80!

Offline dragracer

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Re: Performance prediction. Stock engine on a no bar dragbike frame
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2024, 07:03:37 pm »
dragracer, I was hoping your bike would of weighted less than 400 pounds. My 1080 motor in an Amen Saviour frame weighted about what your bike weights. It did mid 11's 1/4 mile. 60 foot times around 1.5 sec. So stock motor in your frame may only get high 12's.
One thing, is a 1/4 mile now only only 1000 ft.? Or are many tracks still at 1320 feet? For the record.
I would like to see your stock motor with a base line time first. Keeping the piston bore the same. 10, 20, or 30 overbore being okay. Then progressing to higher lift cams, porting, engine weight reductions to any thing possible to try to make it faster (High dome pistons, but bore size must remain as stated). I hope the forum can help you out for parts and labour etc.

I took as much weight as I could off the bike when i built it. I'll start with stock bore and head. This engine is definitely the baseline for this comparison project. Once i get it dialed in and net my best performance i may consider doing simple modifications to see how it increases performance. I do have a set of new Cruzin Images pistons and a cylinder i could have bored to match. I maybe able to find an F3 cam as well. This is a simple upgrade without breaking the bank for anyone thinking about a budget build. Later, a set of high compression pistons could be swapped to illustrate what squeezing air into a tighter spot can do performance wise.