Topic: Installing the All Balls Tapered Roller Bearing Kit

[ZTatZAU]

I've come to realize it's often beneficial and will elicit more response to start a new thread rather than posting additional questions in a prior, lengthy thread. So here goes...

After plodding through the "official" 26 page Tapered Roller Bearing thread as well as a number of other related threads...

I'd like to know if anyone has installed, (or if it is even possible to install), an All Balls Tapered Roller Bearing Kit in a K1 CB750, as per the manufacturer's instructions, without winding up with an 1/8" or so, of additional space between the top bridge and the upper fork cover cushion?

If I understand what I've researched on this, there's no way to avoid this extra space if all the top bearing components of the kit are installed in accordance with the instructions.

So is the only way to avoid this extra space, that some have filled up with an O-Ring or whatever, is to eliminate the All Balls top seal and washer, and then grinding down the circumferential ridge on the underside of the adjusting nut?

I look forward to any and all replies!  ZT

[BenelliSEI]

I’ll be interested in what others have to say. This really annoyed me the first time that I tried one of these kits. I ended up reusing the std Honda bearing on top. The top race carries no weight and doesn’t get “notched”. I bought a bag of new 1/4” balls (less than $10 for 100) and just reused the old bits.

[rotortiller]

ZTatZAU,

It's a mickey mouse set up but it is stronger than OEM. You could try using a lower tapered and upper OEM, the lower takes all the weight. Alternately maybe give up and say screw it, and then go original. 

[BenelliSEI]

Not “could”. I DID use the AllBalls lower with a std top.

[willbird]

Not “could”. I DID use the AllBalls lower with a std top.

I put some kind of a kit in my K2 back in 1992 but did not have any increased stack height issues with whatever was avail back then.

[seanbarney41]

The allballz kit can be made to work fine on a K1,  I just did it about a year and a half ago.  I don't remember what I did.  There has got to be a way to stack everything up and check.  Also, Yamiya sells a tapered roller bearing kit that just bolts up as intended...no questions or fiddling.

[rotortiller]

I have a K7 with the top steering lock and used both top and bottom  tapered “All Balls” bearings while employing the supplied thin washer at the lower bearing. The new All Balls top bearing seal was omitted and the inside of the spanner nut milled down a “C-Hair”. The peg for the top steering lock is dead center on the frame lock stops. I thought about installing the OEM top bearing to lower the top triple a tad, which I could have easily done then gave my head a shake and figured it out. The sealing of the top bearing is still as good as OEM, the positional stack up is basically stock simply because the same spanner nut with the integrated dust shield is still in place. I might add that the lower steering stops line up perfectly too. Because we are dealing with old Honda manufacturing tolerances should you have a few thousands of an inch end play in the headlight bucket ears simply insert a suitable O-ring under the rubber ear caps or fork covers.   ZTatZAU did his research well

[ZTatZAU]

I’ll be interested in what others have to say. This really annoyed me the first time that I tried one of these kits. I ended up reusing the std Honda bearing on top. The top race carries no weight and doesn’t get “notched”. I bought a bag of new 1/4” balls (less than $10 for 100) and just reused the old bits.

ZTatZAU,
It's a mickey mouse set up but it is stronger than OEM. You could try using a lower tapered and upper OEM, the lower takes all the weight. Alternately maybe give up and say screw it, and then go original. 

Thanks for your replies. BenelliSEI and Rotortiller!

I've actually been very close to saying "screw it" and giving up altogether on the All Balls Kit and putting this back together with OEM bearings.  Not only because of the top bearing set dimensional issues but also concerns with the difficulties in trying to remove the very narrow, All Balls races from the frame... should the need arise.

With that said, and with all the positive reports I've read on the All Balls roller bearing performance and longevity, installing the All Balls lower bearing with an OEM bearing up top may be the best solution.  Any other feedback or opinions on this approach are appreciated!

I should note that, as of last week when I checked, the OEM steering bearing components are still available from Honda.  The bearing races and cups seem to be priced reasonably at about $20 each but the OEM Honda #8 (1/4") ball bearings are a whopping $2 each (X 37 = $74)!  Ouch!

I did find OEM 1/4" balls for a bit less on line ($0.81 to $1.34 and chrome 1/4" ball bearings at the local Ace Hardware for $0.55 each, but I'd sure like to know where BenelliSEI found the 1/4" balls for less than a dime each!  John?

So I'm still undecided how to proceed with the steering stem bearings and look forward to hearing any additional advice or suggestions anyone else has to offer!  (And then, while I was typing there was this...

Not “could”. I DID use the AllBalls lower with a std top.

I put some kind of a kit in my K2 back in 1992 but did not have any increased stack height issues with whatever was avail back then.

I do remember someone posting about other roller bearing sets that came in green boxes that were said to turn up every now and then on eBay.  I'm not sure about how long ago that was posted or by whom.

The allballz kit can be made to work fine on a K1,  I just did it about a year and a half ago.  I don't remember what I did.  There has got to be a way to stack everything up and check.  Also, Yamiya sells a tapered roller bearing kit that just bolts up as intended...no questions or fiddling.

Thanks Sean!
I've measured and sketched out everything I could think of to see what I'd wind up with BEFORE installing the "hard to remove", All Balls races in the frame.  The bottom line is, I think, there's now way getting around the All Balls top race that sticks up an 1/8" above the goose neck.  And I'm not to keen of the idea of grinding down the underside of the OEM adjuster nut... or filling in any extra spaces with O-Rings.

I appreciate the Yamiya suggestion but at this point, I think I'll proceed with the All Balls bottom bearing with the OEM bearing on top,,, or just go with the stock Honda bearings at both ends and be done with it.

I have a K7 with the top steering lock and used both top and bottom  tapered “All Balls” bearings while employing the supplied thin washer at the lower bearing. The new All Balls top bearing seal was omitted and the inside of the spanner nut milled down a “C-Hair”. The peg for the top steering lock is dead center on the frame lock stops. I thought about installing the OEM top bearing to lower the top triple a tad, which I could have easily done then gave my head a shake and figured it out. The sealing of the top bearing is still as good as OEM, the positional stack up is basically stock simply because the same spanner nut with the integrated dust shield is still in place. I might add that the lower steering stops line up perfectly too. Because we are dealing with old Honda manufacturing tolerances should you have a few thousands of an inch end play in the headlight bucket ears simply insert a suitable O-ring under the rubber ear caps or fork covers.   ZTatZAU did his research well

Thanks again for your thoughtful replies and nice comment on my due diligence, Rotortiller!
I'll give all this some more thought; but for now I'm on to repainting my top bridge and see how that goes.

ZT

[Scootch]

If you search for 0.25" ball bearings many options pop up.
Would any of them work for your application?

Steel Balls Grade 25 Chrome
Chrome Steel Balls Grade 25 the quality of bearing can be defined by various ratings, such as the rating of ball roundness. A high quality steel ball bearing is consider Grade 25. The grade number refers to the tolerance per millionth of an inch.
Grade 25 is accurate to 25/1,000,000 of an inch

[seanbarney41]

If you used the correct thinner washer on the bottom, the top bearing race sticking up 1/8" does not affect anything negatively, including the fork ears correctly engaging their rubber cushions.  I do remember this much from installing on the K1, and I am also sure that this is gonna be the same on at least k1-k6.  Thinking back, I think what I did was small spacer on the bottom, omit grease seals and omit the extra allballs supplied top washer that takes care of clearance for the serated ring inside the nut.  And yeah, you would then have to remove the serations, which is as easy as a piece of course sandpaper.  Iirc, I even used a bench grinder carefully.

If you used the thicker spacer below the lower bearing?  I don't think it's gonna work without something extra on those rubbers on the fork ears.  If you follow the all balls directions, I don't know how folks are coming up with the thicker washer.  I have done this on at least 5 sohc4's and always came up with the thinner washer.  Simple as that.

[newday777]

Yes the thinner washer at the bottom of the tree, under the bottom seal then the AB bottom bearing. I did it on a K4 about 4 years ago. I don't remember if I used the top seal. But the fork ears fit well.

[Captainkirk]

Personally, the AllBalls solution sounds like not only a PITA, but also a total mismatch. IMHO one would be better just replacing with the correct OEM part, greasing the he'll out of them and replacing at regular intervals.

[ZTatZAU]

Thanks Scootch!  I appreciate the info on the grading of ball bearings!

Sean and Stu!  FYI:  After reading the AB instructions and measuring and comparing the stack heights of the bottom OEM and AB bearing sets, I've never contemplated anything other than using the thin washer at the bottom of the stem.  I'm satisfied that the bottom end will work out fine!

My concern is only with the top bearing set and having to omit the AB top seal and washer, and grinding the underside of the adjuster to avoid any extra space between the top bridge and fork cover cushions.

ZT

[ZTatZAU]

Personally, the AllBalls solution sounds like not only a PITA, but also a total mismatch. IMHO one would be better just replacing with the correct OEM part, greasing the he'll out of them and replacing at regular intervals.

Thanks Captain!  I totally agree and going with OEM bearings is an option I'm seriously considering at this point!
ZT

[denward17]

This is a CB550 I did with AllBalls a few weeks ago.

You can see by the picture there is a gap, I don't think it will hurt anything.  I used the smaller washer in the lower tree, and used the seal and the upper washer on the upper tree under the spanner nut.

I did change the thick Honda washer that goes under the stem nut.  I ordered from McMaster-Carr a shim washer that was thinner and gave me more bite on the stem nut;  18-8 Stainless Steel Wide-Rim Ring Shim 0.048" Thick x 1" ID x 1-1/2" OD

[newday777]

This is a CB550 I did with AllBalls a few weeks ago.

You can see by the picture there is a gap, I don't think it will hurt anything.  I used the smaller washer in the lower tree, and used the seal and the upper washer on the upper tree under the spanner nut.

I did change the thick Honda washer that goes under the stem nut.  I ordered from McMaster-Carr a shim washer that was thinner and gave me more bite on the stem nut;  18-8 Stainless Steel Wide-Rim Ring Shim 0.048" Thick x 1" ID x 1-1/2" OD

Which washer did you put at the bottom against the tree?

[denward17]

This is a CB550 I did with AllBalls a few weeks ago.

You can see by the picture there is a gap, I don't think it will hurt anything.  I used the smaller washer in the lower tree, and used the seal and the upper washer on the upper tree under the spanner nut.

I did change the thick Honda washer that goes under the stem nut.  I ordered from McMaster-Carr a shim washer that was thinner and gave me more bite on the stem nut;  18-8 Stainless Steel Wide-Rim Ring Shim 0.048" Thick x 1" ID x 1-1/2" OD

Which washer did you put at the bottom against the tree?

The thin washer went on the bottom tree.

[BenelliSEI]

I went to Canadian Bearing and the 1/4” balls are high quality and inexpensive. Any good bearing house will have them.