Topic: Ignition/battery questions

[88BuckMeister]

I know if you do some looking on the forum you can usually find older threads concerning questions rather than starting a new one, but I'm having trouble...

75 CB 550, big bore kit with 650 cam. Now I realized the 2/3 points weren't even opening. However, the screws were balls tight and the bike ran beforehand so it's like...ugh what types of problems am I going to find with the points? So I said to hell with it and ordered the Dynatech electronic ignition. So here are my 2 questions:

1- my dad says even with the performance upgrades in building this engine, stock coils/wires should be totally fine. Do you all agree? Does the electronic ignition change any of that? Or the higher compression or beefier cam?

2- my dad says look for one of those NAPA sealed batteries. The bike is otherwise stock, but depending on your answers on the electronic ignition/whether the original coils and plug wires should be fine or not, what BATTERY do you all suggest for this bike that won't break the bank but is also a great battery?

[seanbarney41]

1.  hooo boy!  If you had searched out and read some of those earlier threads you might have realized that this question is not easily answered without forum members just about goin to the fisticuffs
2. I believe I have been told that the NAPA batteries are made by the same company that makes HD oem...so yeah, they are a good buy.  And yes no reason to potentially mess up your bike potentially with acid and fumes from an unsealed battery.

[TwoTired]

How much did you actually increase compression?  I suspect very little.

The 550 charging system is almost double taxed with the Dyna, as it draws nearly double the power of the stock point system due to the way it charges the coils.  3 ohm coils will draw even more power, making operation below 3 K rpm a discharge to the battery (assuming stock electrical components).

I’ve  been happy with the Yuasa brand  batteries for my bikes.  But, you never know what bean counters will do to the product to increase profits.

[grcamna2]

subscribed

[Deltarider]

In previous threads I've demonstrated with test results that the in theory 'extra draw' of 3 Ohm coils is in practice neglectable. I have run 3 Ohms coils and the 55/60 Watts H4 that came standard on my CB500K2-ED for the last 30 years and never experienced problems.
Warning. It seems there are 'experts' around that have made it a habit to point at 'shortcomings' to then profile themselves as experts with 'an answer'.  Although the very good quality OEM breakerpoints can handle 3 Ohm coils easily, a fraction more pitting can be expected when idling a lot of the time.
As far as batteries, coming May my oldstyle Yuasa will have its 7th birthday. So far electric starts only.
If you want maintenance free, opt for AGM and not for Gel.

[calj737]

1- my dad says even with the performance upgrades in building this engine, stock coils/wires should be totally fine. Do you all agree? Does the electronic ignition change any of that? Or the higher compression or beefier cam?

True.

2- my dad says look for one of those NAPA sealed batteries. The bike is otherwise stock, but depending on your answers on the electronic ignition/whether the original coils and plug wires should be fine or not, what BATTERY do you all suggest for this bike that won't break the bank but is also a great battery?

Perfectly fine. Any brand AGM is good enough.

[MauiK3]

Old wires and caps can have high resistance, either way, new stock coils, wires and caps will eliminate a potential failure point.

[Mark1976]

   Either way you choose, it's really more a matter of what you're comfortable with. When I did my '76 550f project I started with an entirely stock ignition, the one that it came with. (10k and change on the clock how bad could they be?) It ran fine, but not being satisfied and a bit curious. (while trying to chase down a intermittent high rpm skip), I tried a pair of accel condenser's. They worked equally as well as the stock components, and then again not being completely satisfied I pulled the ignition box Hondaman makes from my 400f and applied it as well. The real difference with hondaman's ignition box, it starts at the tap of the starter just like it does when its on the 400f and the points show virtually no wear at all. I like the points, just not the lack of quality condenser's.
   Eventually when I sold the bike it had a Dyna ignition on it, and to be honest it didn't make a noticeable difference in performance, but I do believe that it makes the bike more appealing to a younger audience who really wants to enjoy them but has no exposure nor any inclination to learn how to maintain a points based ignition system. So yeah, it's more about what you're more comfortable with the bike won't care either way.

[Captainkirk]

I say listen to your dad.
The main advantage(s) to the Dyna system is the fact that there are no moving parts. Spring operated points have been known to fail. It is, after all, subject to fatigue stress failure. A Hall-effect sensor has no moving parts (aside from the rotating magnet) to wear out.
Also, consider the fact that points do pit and wear and require inspection and maintenance to compensate for rubbing block wear and breaker surfaces care. Condensers can and do break down causing points to pit and burn. You get none of that with Hall-effect systems. It's just better technology all the way around.
As far as batteries go, you live in the Midwest which translates to 4-6 months of downtime a year. Facts are that no lead/acid battery is gonna last more than a few seasons, like it or not, and even if you use a battery tender. The 50 bucks you save by buying a cheaper battery is soon eaten up after several replacements, not to mention having the corrosive effects of H2SO4 hanging around. A good sealed battery should last 5-10 years. Do the math.

[WideAWAKE]

I say listen to your dad.
The main advantage(s) to the Dyna system is the fact that there are no moving parts. Spring operated points have been known to fail. It is, after all, subject to fatigue stress failure. A Hall-effect sensor has no moving parts (aside from the rotating magnet) to wear out.
Also, consider the fact that points do pit and wear and require inspection and maintenance to compensate for rubbing block wear and breaker surfaces care. Condensers can and do break down causing points to pit and burn. You get none of that with Hall-effect systems. It's just better technology all the way around.
As far as batteries go, you live in the Midwest which translates to 4-6 months of downtime a year. Facts are that no lead/acid battery is gonna last more than a few seasons, like it or not, and even if you use a battery tender. The 50 bucks you save by buying a cheaper battery is soon eaten up after several replacements, not to mention having the corrosive effects of H2SO4 hanging around. A good sealed battery should last 5-10 years. Do the math.

Don’t fool yourself into thinking an electric ignition can’t fail. Points can fail, usually slowly and you’re able to limp home/to a safe place to stop. Electric ignition fails, you’re pushing that bike.

Points do require some maintenance, and can be a little tricky to sort out your first time, but you’ll be a better mechanic on the other side.


*I own bikes with both electric ignitions and points.

[M 750K6]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

[grcamna2]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

[Floshenbarnical]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I think in the other threads some vets were saying only to buy Toyo/ TEC (same company) condensors and points.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

[willbird]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have seen more than one person working on using capacitors instead of condensors, that person was working with a pushrod V twin engine so his RPM was lower. He had sent out test units to maybe about 50 people for evaluation.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

[cooldrum]

 David Silver does carry the nos points and condensers.  Also JT Marks has them too.  Well worth the cost since the points are better made and the condensers are better quality than the knock-off's and hold the adjustments longer.

[Scootch]

South Sound Honda and Yamiya have them

[WideAWAKE]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

Seems to be very common with vintage Hondas across the board.

Get oem/nos. As stated. Worth the money.

I’ve had the cheap ones dead out of the box.

[Tracksnblades1]

I like the already mention Yuasa batteries for the old Hondas..I still like the lead/acid ones no voltage regulator worries either.

Understanding the debate between 3ohm and 5ohm coils, I’m not going to contribute to it.
But I like the Honda coils and their quality. I’m betting most owners like me have never had a failure with a Honda
coil that was garaged when not riding…

Read the posts on this forum and others of the continual heat related electronic ignition failures with the only brands available for these old bikes.. Benelli or someone may have found a better one that allows for custom advance curve maps, but it’s been mentioned none of the provided maps provide the total advance needed at 2500rpm and the total amount for the SOHCs out of the box..

Again understanding the increased coil dwell on time as compared to the fixed dwell of the mechanical point’s setting and that of what the  point cam allows. One could use the many available point triggered/activated transistor ignitions. Where the original Points only control(switch) the voltage to the transistor’s gate on and off and never pitting again. Instead of switching the power and current hungry coils that are responsible for pitting the points in the first place. Especially when leaving the key on and engine not running pits. See if your aftermarket coils like this….The point cam block may still wear a bit if not properly lubricated but point contact faces may last a lifetime or two..The condenser/capacitor is not used but could just be disconnected and left in place incase you had to go back to points to get home..😇

Hondaman manufacturers or repackages and moisture seals some type of these point triggered transistor ignitions. Not sure what or what type, power transistor or MOSFET but either will keep up with your 550 even at 10,000 rpm.. I like the MOSFETs better but that another discussion..

Here’s one (attached)of many online circuits for a point triggered gate MOSFET ignition. Add some epoxy to seal it. Sounds like your Dad’s pretty handy. He’s probably adjusted a lot of points too.

Remember you can spend as much money as you like on an ignition and the dyno won’t show any more than a faction of a horsepower difference.. Provided one can properly adjust your points and advancer….🤔 One will have more issues with bad gasoline in these old bikes than their ignitions depending on how frequent the usage.

I hope you’ve got to at least hear it run before dropping a load for the Dyna….😩

[PeWe]

I bought Dyna-S with 3 ohm coils to my CB750.

At first ride I realized that the battery became weak after a short ride to a friend outside my town. Rpm mostly in good charging mode.
Headlight on as usual, off at the way back home.

I went back to my local shop where I could swap the not much used green coils to black 5 ohm coils for an ok fee.

Much better after that.

Skickat från min CPH2581 via Tapatalk

[Tracksnblades1]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

If I remember correctly I think some have tried Mallory condensers, 400 I think, also I think the bracket is a bit different. Not sure. I think PEWE has experimented with the Mallorys’. 

I’m still using OEM’s and points. I’ll try Bosch condensers or old magneto condensers if I run out of Honda’s. Neither seem to fail either..

[grcamna2]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

If I remember correctly I think some have tried Mallory condensers, 400 I think, also I think the bracket is a bit different. Not sure. I think PEWE has experimented with the Mallorys’. 

I’m still using OEM’s and points. I’ll try Bosch condensers or old magneto condensers if I run out of Honda’s. Neither seem to fail either..

Good to know. Can you purchase them locally ?

[willbird]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!

It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

If I remember correctly I think some have tried Mallory condensers, 400 I think, also I think the bracket is a bit different. Not sure. I think PEWE has experimented with the Mallorys’. 

I’m still using OEM’s and points. I’ll try Bosch condensers or old magneto condensers if I run out of Honda’s. Neither seem to fail either..

Guy I work with loves 1970's Mopars, he had a condensor fail away from home, he remembered there was one on the back of the 1970's AMFM radio and stole it to use and it got him home just fine :-).

[Mark1976]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!
It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

If I remember correctly I think some have tried Mallory condensers, 400 I think, also I think the bracket is a bit different. Not sure. I think PEWE has experimented with the Mallorys’. 

I’m still using OEM’s and points. I’ll try Bosch condensers or old magneto condensers if I run out of Honda’s. Neither seem to fail either..

   That's what I used, the Mallory 400 condenser,  they worked perfectly fine.... plenty affordable as well.

[grcamna2]

The Honda is my only bike with points and I really like the gap setting / timing process. However, I'm uncomfortable with the reported reliability of condensers. I already carry a spare plug and as many tools as I can squeeze under the seat. The space available under the seat is a bit disappointing!
It's not just Hondas. I helped a mate rebuild his Suzuki GT185 last summer. A fun project. 1st start, with the points cover off, it was arcing badly. Points had a nice flat contact and were gapped OK. The 3 years old condenser had gone bad just standing for 2 years, while it awaited its rebuild.

I have had the issue with bad condensers and would like to know who sells fresh,quality condensers for our bikes ?

If I remember correctly I think some have tried Mallory condensers, 400 I think, also I think the bracket is a bit different. Not sure. I think PEWE has experimented with the Mallorys’. 

I’m still using OEM’s and points. I’ll try Bosch condensers or old magneto condensers if I run out of Honda’s. Neither seem to fail either..

   That's what I used, the Mallory 400 condenser,  they worked perfectly fine.... plenty affordable as well.

Mallory 400;is the 400 the part #,does it have the proper electrical resistance for our points,etc. ?

[Tracksnblades1]

Gamma,

Most of them are around 0.22 microfarads. Some Chrysler used 0.27 microfarad ones.
If you find some old new autolight, Delco Remy, motorcraft, mercury quicksilver, kohler, onan,
Bosch, etc…they’ll be good ones too. The OEMs always used good ones. Standard was a good aftermarket one that supplied some to an OEM manufacturer but I forget which one..

Most Automotive condenser/capacitors are usually somewhere between 0.22 - 0.30, but I’m sure a few will fall outside this range….I think Honda’s  are 0.22 also..