Topic: MLS head gasket with stock cylinder studs

[Pbeattie89]

Has anyone had luck using a mls gasket with stock studs? Stock studs are torqued to 13.7-15.2 ft/lbs, but PeWe mentioned that the mls gaskets need a higher torque to crush and seal, I think he mentioned around 22 ft/lb. I am leaning towards just buying some studs, but I figured I would get a few opinions first.

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[PeWe]

I tighten stock studs with ca 20 ft lbs.
20.65 with 836 (28Nm)
Again the day after. If compressed much, next day too.

MLS does not compress until day after. But I check anyway.

Stock studs are more flexible than heavy duty studs.
Fiber gasket will probably handle that better than MLS. Just a feeling, no hard facts.

Ask Mike Rieck (forum member MRieck) about MLS and stock studs and if he also recommend heavy duty studs for MLS head gasket.  (Stock engines)

He has tightened a great number of heads on different engines.

A harder pounding engine with higher compression and bigger bores sure need the more rigid hd studs.

[HondaMan]

Like PeWe, I've long used a little more torque, and on the subsequent day: caveat: I seldom use the MLS gaskets, though.

Using regular head gasket:
On the 'first pass' I go down to the max 15.2 ft-lbs/182 in-lbs, then the next day back off the nuts 1/2 turn (in reverse torque sequence) and start again at #1. The nuts always go down further on the 2nd run.

With HD studs, the maker of those studs usually provides their max torque value.

[PeWe]

Both APE and Kibblewhite spec max 22.5 ft lb.
The accuracy of my wrench +/- 4%. So I see 96% of 22.5 as max, 21.6 ft lb, 29.3 Nm with my wrench.

Important to have a correct torque wrench and use it correctly. A clicking wrench need an even slow stroke until it click.
If I reach an obstacle and have to grip again from a better angle and it will click direct. I'll redo, loosen a little so it will click while nut or bolt is moving.

A snappy move of a torque wrench can end up in a huge error.
One wrench seller visiting my job showed how to do this correctly and incorrectly.
  +20-25% too much by tighten a bolt by a quick snappy movement.
That time, 1990,  90-120Nm bolts if I remember correctly.

I snapped one HD stud due to the torque wrench I had borrowed from my job's lab where they had off service wrenches.

I had to tighten the head nuts 36Nm (26.55 ft lb) to get them moving further with a new torque wrench. I tested a few head nuts to be sure.
I had tightened them 28Nm (20.65ft lb) with the bad wrench.

Time for me to order own torque  wrenches which I have used a lot since then. 
German brand Hazet that did not cost much more than the cheap ones 2014.
5120-2CT 10-60Nm 1/2".

Later model 5120-3CT has 3% tolerance and still OK price.

EDIT:
Threads + under nut or bolt head lightly oiled. Dry will cause friction and  lower clamping force .
There are charts with torque and different lubricants.

Oil vs  Molykote 1000 with less friction ending up in higher clamping force at same tightening force used with the wrench.

Our head nuts, lightly oiled.
Dry will not work well when tightening with torque wrench.
Test and feel it

[Pbeattie89]

I tighten stock studs with ca 20 ft lbs.
20.65 with 836 (28Nm)
Again the day after. If compressed much, next day too.

MLS does not compress until day after. But I check anyway.

Stock studs are more flexible than heavy duty studs.
Fiber gasket will probably handle that better than MLS. Just a feeling, no hard facts.

Ask Mike Rieck (forum member MRieck) about MLS and stock studs and if he also recommend heavy duty studs for MLS head gasket.  (Stock engines)

He has tightened a great number of heads on different engines.

A harder pounding engine with higher compression and bigger bores sure need the more rigid hd studs.

I've just heard back from Mike, and he recommends the HD studs while using the MLS gasket even on the stock motor. The stock studs just dont clamp down hard enough to get a proper crush and seal on the MLS. He also recommended 22ft/lb.

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[Pbeattie89]

Here is a question for you guys. Is there any merit to getting uprated nuts to go with the stud kits? Can the stock nuts handle 22ft/lb?

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[HondaMan]

I've never used anything other than the OEM nuts, even with HD studs on (racing) engines with as much as 25 ft-lbs torque on them.

[PeWe]

I use Honda nuts. Last assembly ca 29.45Nm. (21.7 ft lb)
Honda nuts for case studs too I tightened 25Nm.

I reused an MLS that had been torqued 29Nm before.
It had been used only 1200km.

I have another used gasket of same size, used 5800km, look good like it can be reused, tighten it harder than before. This is the good thing with MLS head gaskets and RCS base gaskets.

70mm bore, 0.03" thick MLS from Dynoman that had sale, $29.95 each. I should have bought more than 3


Over 8000km done and no leaks.
It had weaped oil around oil filter. Replaced the o-ring around the bolt with a thicker viton o-ring 15x2.5mm.

I think the gasket crushed at around ca 27Nm (ca 20 ft lb).
https://www.unitconverters.net/energy/ft-lb-to-nm.htm

The nuts suddenly move easier when tighten.
Possible to hear gasket give after too.

That engine has Rubber Coated Steel base gasket and have been reused several times. Thinner model.
Last time with a very thin layer of high temp RTV on both sides, cured for an hour or two before using it. It was a minor oil weep before.

Here photos of that assembly late August 2022.
The reused MLS, 2 knock pins in outer front corners not yet there, comment in Swedish.





Note!
Do not forget that MLS gasket need a flat and smooth surface.
No scratches that fiber gasket has no problems with.

[HondaMan]

That engine has Rubber Coated Steel base gasket and have been reused several times. Thinner model.
Last time with a very thin layer of high temp RTV on both sides, cured for an hour or two before using it. It was a minor oil weep before.

PeWe: where did that steel gasket come from, and do they make one for standard-size 750 (or maybe...500/550) bores?

I found those types of gaskets to be invincible in my older Ford engines. I drove the last one 450k+ miles with that head gasket, even after having to remove it and re-use it during the build (because the machine shop screwed up and installed the rear cam bearing wrong, cutting off all top-end oiling, grr...never used THAT shop again...).

[PeWe]

That engine has Rubber Coated Steel base gasket and have been reused several times. Thinner model.
Last time with a very thin layer of high temp RTV on both sides, cured for an hour or two before using it. It was a minor oil weep before.

PeWe: where did that steel gasket come from, and do they make one for standard-size 750 (or maybe...500/550) bores?

I found those types of gaskets to be invincible in my older Ford engines. I drove the last one 450k+ miles with that head gasket, even after having to remove it and re-use it during the build (because the machine shop screwed up and installed the rear cam bearing wrong, cutting off all top-end oiling, grr...never used THAT shop again...).

I ordered my gaskets from Dynoman.
I see they have RCS base gaskets for CB500/550/650 too.

Scroll down
https://www.dynoman.net/engine/gaskets-cometic.html#60mm-cb550