Topic: Ay Caramba!!!...$17.5k?!?!

[mick750F]

  This seems to be a very nice bike with all sorts of the right work done to it and it has a bid of $17.5k on it. Maybe I shouldn't be but I'm astounded. Have I missed something? Is this what the Sandcast bikes are going for now? I've got to put some Sandcast parts on my '78F and pump up the value.

Mike

Thanks Raul...obviously Spanish is not my first...or second language.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-Sandcast-750-Sandcast-750-Cb750_W0QQitemZ320094010797QQcategoryZ80647QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item320094010797

[kslrr]

That is truly amazing, but $17.5K?  Maybe if it was in this condition WITHOUT being restored, like the 'surviver' cars you see on Barrett-Jackson.

[Slapguts]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120096992203&rd=1,1

I'd rather buy that one. Same town, too.

[DammitDan]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120096992203&rd=1,1

I'd rather buy that one. Same town, too.

You can ride it around with this in your holster!

[toycollector10]

What is a survivor car?  Is that like a nice classic, say, 1963 stringray, one owner and always garaged, low miles but unrestored?

Do people pay a premium for that sort of car, over a resorted one, no matter how good the restoration is?

[burmashave]

"Aye Carumba" is right.

[Raul CB750K1]

I guess you mean: Ay Caramba!!! 

I've read the description and it seems the guy knows what he's selling. Having a Sandcast with matching engine and frame is rare enough. If you add the cost of getting those unobtainable parts like short chainguard, non-lip front fender, plust the cost of restoring, plating etc, 20 grand buy-it-know seems even cheap. -if you have the cash and whim to own a sandcast-

That's the problem of restoring those bikes. It's either a perfect resto or it's not. As soon as the seat is pattern and the tank is not wrinkle, it's not a perfect restoration from that point of view. No matter how much did the chainguard cost; the seat and tank are lowering the final price.

[USN20]

Well, it's not the perfect example or even a correct restoration from the item description. The word *restoration* is abused on a regular basis. The ebay price doesn't seem out of line compared to the sandcast restorations of Mr. Vic World which cost in the neighborhood of $29,500 ...

http://www.worldmotorcycles.com/

[Tim2005]

I don't think sandcast buyers actually get much for their money, I was in Dave Silver's last week & he has one, among a row of immaculate Hondas, and it does not look anything special. There is a truly gorgeous red Phil Read replica alongside it, a really nice bike which is rarer than a sandcast, goes, stops and handles better, yet is probably worth a 1/4 of the price at the minute. Further up the row is an as new CBX, in red, looks much more special than the sandcast, and is doubtless more exciting to ride. It's interesting that the seller of this ebay one is clearly a collector & he's getting out.

Perhaps we should start lobbying to get another model recognised. 77 400F is the rarest Honda 4 model ever I believe... could be worth $20k soon.

 

[736cc]

Anybody that buys a sandcast (or any collectable motorcycle) thats been restored by somebody else is missing the point completely. Its too surrogate. Its like BUYING artwork as compared to MAKING artwork. You have to DO IT to really appreciate it. And I've come to this conclusion re: sandcast restorations and value:

The eyeball-popping perfectly "new" immaculate museum-quality restorations garner the big-bucks but aren't always 100% correct. Those are snapped-up by wealthy buyers that spend that much money on landscaping each month. They don't really know the esoteric correct details but they recognize a beautiful motorcycle and maybe did a little homework. A teeny-tiny scratch on mirror-perfect new paint is a flaw in their eyes. $20 grand is pocket change.

The 100% original CORRECT sandcasts w/ the really cool details and patina appeal to the enthusiast that really knows the detail differences with these bikes which can be only figured out by hands-on experiance with several of them. There's no substitute for experiance, and reading about thse things just don't cut it. How many people know the difference between a VERY early sandcast oil line, an EARLY sandcast oil line, and a LATE early sandcast oil line? Or the early wrinkle sandcast tanks compared to later wrinkle sandcast tanks? (And who really cares?). And whoever knows this stuff would never pay the crazy numbers for them. To me, a chip or scratch on original paint is wonderful.

As for restorations, the coolest restorations are known as "SYMPATHETIC" restorations. Motorcycle is generally all-original, the resto consists of taking it all apart, carefully cleaning it, no touch-ups, no re-chroming, replace obviously damaged bits w/ correct original replacements, and when its finished, DOESN'T LOOK RESTORED. And this motorcycle runs like a raped ape and ridden as often as possible. Its owned and restored by the same person. This type of resto requires more "SMARTS' than "MONEY" and results are very subtle.
"CONCOURS" restorations are taken apart, re-chromed, re-plated, new everything and sometimes new means not correct but it MUST be new to be perfect (ie: HM300 stamped vs unstamped exhaust). ITS ALL BRAND-NEW. And starting it up and riding it will possibly devalue it if done regularly. These bikes invariably end up either being sold to the wealthy, to a museum or sits in an enthusiasts collection to be trailered to shows only. This resto requires only "LOTS OF MONEY" and results have a very-high WOW-FACTOR..

Park these 2 types side-by-side and 99% (including the big wallets) want the concours. Which would you want?

[andy750]

I like your reply 736cc and agree with you completely. Me, I wouldnt want a concourse restoration - I would never ride it so whats the point of having it. I like blemishes and scratches that tell stories about the bike and where its been and what its done. My trip CB750K4 is what I enjoy - its been around various countries and has the marks to give it that character. Ive put more money into it than its worth (and shipping it across continents and coast to coast) and  wont sell it. Its all mine  .

cheers
Andy

[kslrr]

Yes Toycollecter, that is it.  Watch Barrett-Jackson some time on the Speed channel (if you get it where you are).  I have seen survivor Camaro's go for $750,000 if it is a rare one.

[toycollector10]

He thought his "Cuda was worth $700,000 plus. Sounds fishy to me

quote
A Michigan judge is being sued by a collector car auction company after he accused the firm of underselling his classic vehicle.
David Clabuesch said his 1970 Hemi 'Cuda sold for $300,000 at Scottsdale's Barrett-Jackson Collector Car Auction in January but the muscle car should have fetched $700,000 to $1 million.
Barrett-Jackson is suing Clabuesch in U.S. District Court here for "outrageous and defamatory actions," including chaining the car's wheels at the auction tent and putting up a sign calling its sale void.
Internet chats and blogs regarding Clabuesch's claims are harming the Scottsdale-based car auction's business interests, Virginia Llewelyn, Barrett-Jackson's corporate counsel, said Friday.
Llewelyn said internal Barrett-Jackson documents, used to determine which day to sell the car, indicated the 'Cuda was worth about $200,000.
The lawsuit, filed Thursday, seeks unspecified damages and asks Clabuesch to stop maligning Barrett-Jackson.
Clabuesch, a 57-year-old judge in the Huron County Probate Court, said he did not defame Barrett-Jackson.
"They quick-gaveled the car," said Clabuesch, who protested the bidding procedure immediately and is willing to let a jury decide whether the sale was handled properly.
He said he had about $225,000 invested in the car - the last authenticated Ramchargers racer - through purchase and trademark investments.
Clabuesch said he plans his own legal action against Barrett-Jackson.
Unquote.
Source is www.tucsconcitizen.com

[grumburg]

They are only original once.

[6pkrunner]

Barrett-Jackson are going to take a real raking over the coals. Craig Jackson has made his "house of cards" as one column labeled it and its now falling down on him. Not a real snapshot of the collector car hobby, but more like the Pamela Anderson of it. Now that people are getting past the eye candy of it - there's nothing there. Cars owned by B-J and pumped up in value and rebought by themselves to inflate others, schill bidding, short-gaveling - the list is endless.
And muscle cars have been riding the crest of being over valued for a long time. That $700,000 hemi cuda was two years ago price. They've fallen considerable since then. The 1971 hemi cuda ragtops are beyond value as there is only 11 (12 if you include the latest rebodied French find) and are only passed between the hands of mega millionaires.

And yes a survivor car is worth its weight in gold. As is often quoted "you can restore a car a thousand times, but its only original once". Mopars went through the survivor evolution very seriously about 7 years ago when the art of restorations finally came into its own. There have been three or four primo restorers over the years and right now Roger Gibson stands at the top of the heap. But even he will give his eye teeth for a genuine survivor to be documented. And like anything else the definition of survivor has been watered down over the years. There are really only a handfull of true survivors out there and they run through the show and magazine circuit very quickly. So the definition has to be diluted to allow more into the classification so the coverage is still going on. They even allow 30% of the vehicle to be repainted and normal wear item to be replaced with non-OEM pieces. Sure people shop at Pep Boys and Auto Zone and such when these cars seen daily use, but that in all honesty removes them from true survivor status.
Sad to say the best examples of survivors were purchased by guys just before they headed off to Viet Nam and never came back. The parents held on to the cars for a long time and finally allowed the cars to be freed up. A 1970 hemi cuda with 56 miles (not the green bench seat 1/4 miler), a 1970 Superbird with 101 miles or a 1970 hemi Challenger with 126 miles. These are survivors. All the factory flaws out in the open to see.
Some of the lesser restoration houses will feature base/clear paint buffed to a mirror shine and perfectly aligned sheetmetal - none of the cars ever left the factory looking like that.
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the bikes followed this trend. But a 100% restored bike is never a survivor no matter what. It may have only had low miles but when completely refurbished, all traces of the factory finish and assembly procedures were lost.

[grumburg]

Barrett-Jackson are going to take a real raking over the coals. Craig Jackson has made his "house of cards" as one column labeled it and its now falling down on him. Not a real snapshot of the collector car hobby, but more like the Pamela Anderson of it. Now that people are getting past the eye candy of it - there's nothing there. Cars owned by B-J and pumped up in value and rebought by themselves to inflate others, schill bidding, short-gaveling - the list is endless.
And muscle cars have been riding the crest of being over valued for a long time. That $700,000 hemi cuda was two years ago price. They've fallen considerable since then. The 1971 hemi cuda ragtops are beyond value as there is only 11 (12 if you include the latest rebodied French find) and are only passed between the hands of mega millionaires.

And yes a survivor car is worth its weight in gold. As is often quoted "you can restore a car a thousand times, but its only original once". Mopars went through the survivor evolution very seriously about 7 years ago when the art of restorations finally came into its own. There have been three or four primo restorers over the years and right now Roger Gibson stands at the top of the heap. But even he will give his eye teeth for a genuine survivor to be documented. And like anything else the definition of survivor has been watered down over the years. There are really only a handfull of true survivors out there and they run through the show and magazine circuit very quickly. So the definition has to be diluted to allow more into the classification so the coverage is still going on. They even allow 30% of the vehicle to be repainted and normal wear item to be replaced with non-OEM pieces. Sure people shop at Pep Boys and Auto Zone and such when these cars seen daily use, but that in all honesty removes them from true survivor status.
Sad to say the best examples of survivors were purchased by guys just before they headed off to Viet Nam and never came back. The parents held on to the cars for a long time and finally allowed the cars to be freed up. A 1970 hemi cuda with 56 miles (not the green bench seat 1/4 miler), a 1970 Superbird with 101 miles or a 1970 hemi Challenger with 126 miles. These are survivors. All the factory flaws out in the open to see.
Some of the lesser restoration houses will feature base/clear paint buffed to a mirror shine and perfectly aligned sheetmetal - none of the cars ever left the factory looking like that.
I suppose it was only a matter of time before the bikes followed this trend. But a 100% restored bike is never a survivor no matter what. It may have only had low miles but when completely refurbished, all traces of the factory finish and assembly procedures were lost.

How true! In the late 80s, Ferraris were to marque du-jour, then they crashed. Have not recovered in 17 yrs to those levels. Muscle cars will crash, and take Craig Jackson with it. They are no longer cars. Only reason these greedy SOBS pay that kind of money is they think someone will give them more next month. Trees do not grow to the sky.

[Tim2005]

So the definition has to be diluted to allow more into the classification so the coverage is still going on. They even allow 30% of the vehicle to be repainted and normal wear item to be replaced with non-OEM pieces. Sure people shop at Pep Boys and Auto Zone and such when these cars seen daily use, but that in all honesty removes them from true survivor status.

Interesting that it's been quantified at 30% (though I wonder how that's measured), there was a famous court case over the definition of originality years back, over the Bentley "Old Number One"... see link below

http://www.gomog.com/articles/no1judgement.html

[Uncle Ernie]

Anybody looking to make some money- find a nice, low miles Civic or CRX and warehouse it for 15 years.  Those are going to be the next muscle cars.

[GroovieGhoulie]

This thread is making me question a bike we have in the family.

It's a '74 550K0 with 23 original miles on it.  Guy rode it home from the dealer, parked it, then died shortly thereafter.  The bike then sat, (but EXTREMELY well cared for) until mid 2006 where my dad bought it.

It literally looks like it should be sitting on a showroom floor.  A real museum piece.  It's got one flaw and that is that the right sidecover is a replacement because the original somehow got cracked or otherwise broken in the 32 years before we bought it.  We are currently hunting for a new right sidecover; we have the emblem, but no cover.

I'm inclined to ride it since that's what it was intended for, and I'm not a big fan of buying machines and never using them since they're little more than expensive models at that point. We never plan to get rid of it, so the monetary value is of little to no concern, (plus Honda built a zillion of 'em) but part of me DOES want to keep it "perfect".  What do you guys think?

[6pkrunner]

Bikes have a much smaller market than the 4 wheeled versions. For someone who had a bike that was exactly what a previous owner was looking for then I suppose the wallet would open. But as far as a retirement plan...... However a super clean fully original version with ultra low miles will always be collectible - depends on the model and the sentimentality of the prospective purchaser. As in almost all form of collection the very first and very last of items are the most desired. Witness the sandcasts.

Here is one that I would have paid more than the $613 winning bid for. A 1972 brown CB500. A good friend of mine had the first one in our province. He has since passed on. The distance to get this one was the killer.

[mickey]

I do not know about you guys but,  I ride my Sandcast every weekend.