Author Topic: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?  (Read 3102 times)

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Offline Aceon

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Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« on: April 24, 2024, 08:01:55 AM »
Hey all, finally got my bike started after the first rebuild I've ever done, been crossing my fingers hoping I didn't f*** something up!

I've reviewed all of the threads regarding low oil pressure and just want to get confirmation on a few things. Based on the other threads, it seems like the issue could be my main bearings or a poor seal in my oil pump.
I've replaced the O-rings on the outside of the pump (avoided disassembly), and I've replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny O-ring near the shifter assembly. I'm pretty confident I didn't miss any.

I primed the oil pump before I installed it into the engine but I wasn't able to build any pressure on the starter, though I did see oil flowing in the tank. After I bit the bullet and started it up, I saw pressure immediately - but only 10lbs or so.
  • Oil - Valvoline 10w-40 with some zinc additives (should've gone thicker)
  • Pressure gauge / Oil light - Not 100% sure it's fully accurate, I just installed it during the rebuild and I was completely unaware of oil pressure before the rebuild. P/O seems to have removed the oil light. Here's the listing for the gauge: https://www.ebay.com/itm/276265584097?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=cwIrmiBIRuu&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=HZZ-Ei2zSi2&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
  • General pressure - Oil circulates through the tank seemingly way faster than before the rebuild, it shoots up and splashes off the top. Also, the top end flings oil of the rockers, so oil is there.
  • Idle pressure - I get 10lbs at idle and it looks to scale about 8-10lbs per 1000 rpms. I don't have a tach right now, so that's by feel.

My main question is this - how worried do I need to be?
I would really love to avoid taking the engine back out at all costs. It has oil pressure, and probably more than it did before, it just seems low. I don't push this bike hard or race it. Are there any simple things that I can do to improve pressure?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 08:03:29 AM by Aceon »

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2024, 08:08:06 AM »
There are some threads here about oil pressure that lay out some O ring locations elsewhere in the engine that can fail with age and cause oil pressure to be lower ?? I seem to remember the O rings being on one end of the engine or the other on a CB750K under the side covers.

If you posted the exact Bike you have I did not see it in a quick read.

Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2024, 08:41:26 AM »
There are some threads here about oil pressure that lay out some O ring locations elsewhere in the engine that can fail with age and cause oil pressure to be lower ?? I seem to remember the O rings being on one end of the engine or the other on a CB750K under the side covers.

If you posted the exact Bike you have I did not see it in a quick read.

My bad, it's a 1977 CB750K. I'm pretty sure I read that same thread and I'm 99% sure I've replaced those already.

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2024, 08:48:19 AM »
There are some threads here about oil pressure that lay out some O ring locations elsewhere in the engine that can fail with age and cause oil pressure to be lower ?? I seem to remember the O rings being on one end of the engine or the other on a CB750K under the side covers.

If you posted the exact Bike you have I did not see it in a quick read.

My bad, it's a 1977 CB750K. I'm pretty sure I read that same thread and I'm 99% sure I've replaced those already.

The galley where people typically install and oil pressure gauge has a plug on the other end that has an O ring, it is under the alternator cover maybe ?? I cannot see that leaking. I tried to order the valve lash cap looking threaded galley plug and got the one for the other end by mistake so I now know what it looks like out of the engine LOL.



When I woke my K2 up from a 20 year nap I drained all the oil and refilled it with some 5-30W I had leftover from a Tacoma I owned, planning to just heat cycle it a few times and then do an oil change. I had great oil pressure with Mobil 1 5-30W....45lbs cranking on my K2

Bill
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 08:57:23 AM by willbird »

Offline scottly

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2024, 08:52:58 AM »
Idle pressure - I get 10lbs at idle and it looks to scale about 8-10lbs per 1000 rpms. I don't have a tach right now, so that's by feel.
Do you mean that the oil pressure is 50 PSI at 5000 RPM?
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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2024, 12:02:15 PM »
There are some threads here about oil pressure that lay out some O ring locations elsewhere in the engine that can fail with age and cause oil pressure to be lower ?? I seem to remember the O rings being on one end of the engine or the other on a CB750K under the side covers.

If you posted the exact Bike you have I did not see it in a quick read.

My bad, it's a 1977 CB750K. I'm pretty sure I read that same thread and I'm 99% sure I've replaced those already.

The galley where people typically install and oil pressure gauge has a plug on the other end that has an O ring, it is under the alternator cover maybe ?? I cannot see that leaking. I tried to order the valve lash cap looking threaded galley plug and got the one for the other end by mistake so I now know what it looks like out of the engine LOL.



When I woke my K2 up from a 20 year nap I drained all the oil and refilled it with some 5-30W I had leftover from a Tacoma I owned, planning to just heat cycle it a few times and then do an oil change. I had great oil pressure with Mobil 1 5-30W....45lbs cranking on my K2

Bill

So you're reccomending swapping that O-ring on the opposite side of the galley to improve pressure? Seems easy enough.

Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2024, 12:03:17 PM »
Idle pressure - I get 10lbs at idle and it looks to scale about 8-10lbs per 1000 rpms. I don't have a tach right now, so that's by feel.
Do you mean that the oil pressure is 50 PSI at 5000 RPM?

It's hard to tell without a tach, I also haven't revved it that high on the first couple starts. I would ballpark 25ish PSI at 3000rpm.

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2024, 12:36:30 PM »
There are some threads here about oil pressure that lay out some O ring locations elsewhere in the engine that can fail with age and cause oil pressure to be lower ?? I seem to remember the O rings being on one end of the engine or the other on a CB750K under the side covers.

If you posted the exact Bike you have I did not see it in a quick read.

My bad, it's a 1977 CB750K. I'm pretty sure I read that same thread and I'm 99% sure I've replaced those already.

The galley where people typically install and oil pressure gauge has a plug on the other end that has an O ring, it is under the alternator cover maybe ?? I cannot see that leaking. I tried to order the valve lash cap looking threaded galley plug and got the one for the other end by mistake so I now know what it looks like out of the engine LOL.



When I woke my K2 up from a 20 year nap I drained all the oil and refilled it with some 5-30W I had leftover from a Tacoma I owned, planning to just heat cycle it a few times and then do an oil change. I had great oil pressure with Mobil 1 5-30W....45lbs cranking on my K2

Bill

So you're reccomending swapping that O-ring on the opposite side of the galley to improve pressure? Seems easy enough.

Only if it leaks, it is held in by the cover and gasket, I'd think a pressure leak there would be very obvious.

Bill

Offline Don R

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2024, 01:32:54 PM »
 I'd throw some good 20W50 in it, I always discard the first oil after a rebuild anyway, or run it through your lawn mower.  Give that bike a little exercise if it goes over 10psi.
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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2024, 05:15:59 PM »
Well I gave the engine it's first new miles! It feels way more powerful with the work I've done to it, which is super satisfying.

Anyways, the pressure kept dropping after the engine was warm, and ended up at 0psi at idle. However, oil was still shooting through the tank with lots of power, and oil was still flinging off the rockers. Am I wrong to think that the gauge might be busted? I figured I would've caused some real damage by now if not  :P

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2024, 05:40:22 PM »
😳 zero oil pressure?😳

Scavenger Oil returning so hard it’s shooting to the top of the (full?) oil tank..?
What did your old rod and main bearings look like..?
Are you sure the oil pressure side of your oil pump is not leaking pressurized oil to the scavenger side of the oil pump..?
Oil pump orings..?

There is an oil flow chart in the manual available here on sohc. The scavenge oil lubes the transmission and clutch too..

I would check to make sure your pressure side is not leaking oil into the dry sump instead of all going through the main oil gallery..

What gauge? Where? Does the factory oil light still function…?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2024, 06:02:10 PM »
I see the oil pressure gauge link now…😏
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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2024, 06:35:01 PM »
😳 zero oil pressure?😳

Scavenger Oil returning so hard it’s shooting to the top of the (full?) oil tank..?
What did your old rod and main bearings look like..?
Are you sure the oil pressure side of your oil pump is not leaking pressurized oil to the scavenger side of the oil pump..?
Oil pump orings..?

There is an oil flow chart in the manual available here on sohc. The scavenge oil lubes the transmission and clutch too..

I would check to make sure your pressure side is not leaking oil into the dry sump instead of all going through the main oil gallery..

What gauge? Where? Does the factory oil light still function…?

Yep, scavenger oil is shooting to the top of the tank. I didn't know it was possible for the sides to leak to each other, how can I check that? The clutch slipped with power at the start of the drive but it got better with time. Rod and main bearings looked a little worn but nothing jumped out at me. I didn't measure them though. Slightly worried I did some damage, hopefully not. I have most of the O-rings for a oil pump rebuild, I just avoided taking it apart because it seemed like it could cause more harm than good. Would rebuilding it be worth it? Should I pick up a used one instead?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 06:39:13 PM by Aceon »

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2024, 07:13:05 PM »
Does your OEM oil light still work..?
Was it on…?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2024, 07:15:42 PM »
When you shut the engine off…
Does your oil tank stay full..?
Or is it empty before you start the engine..?
Are all the orings on the oil pump mounting flanges..?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2024, 07:17:23 PM »
Do you know how the oil stopper valve works..?
Do you know how the main pressure regulator works..?
Do you know how the oil filter bypass works..?
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2024, 07:20:07 PM »
Have you reviewed the oil flow chart in the service manual..?
Have you reviewed the oil pump exploded view in the service manual..?
Have you reviewed the oil stopper valve, main oil pressure regulator, and plugged oil filter bypass valve in the oil filter bolt…?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2024, 07:29:14 PM »
These bikes need no less than 5 PSI at hot idle and should be higher than 40 PSI at 3000+ RPM with a hot engine. And, 20w50 oil, non-detergent type: 10w40 is too light for summertime use (despite the 'lore' of the old Owners Manuals, which I've written many times here about in the past) and is the #1 reason for worn valve guides in the post-1975 engines.

The main oil seal in between the 2 halves of the oil pump (which is a PITA to change) affects the pressure more than anything else. The rubber in that seal is now hard from age, so it seals poorly. The way it works is: the engine-side's oil pressure squeezes down on the skirt of that seal to close it on the shaft between the 2 chambers. When it leaks thru from being hard, the main oil PSI drops as it leaks thru there into the scavenge side, which also hastens it back to the oil tank, making a whole lot of extra flow seem like it is happening inside the tank. This sounds sorta like yours?

About that oil tunnel's plug and seal: they very seldom leak, or even weep. I only change them when these engines are fully apart. I have that O-ring if you need one, but I doubt yours does?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 10:49:58 AM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2024, 07:12:33 AM »
These bikes need no less than 5 PSI at hot idle and should be higher than 40 PSI at 3000+ RPM with a hot engine. And, 20w50 oil, non-detergent type: 10w40 is too light for summertime use (despite the 'lore' of the old Owners Manuals, which I've written many times here about in the past) and is the #1 reason for worn valve guides in the post-1975 engines.

The main oil seal in between the 2 halves of the oil pump (which is a PITA to change) affects the pressure more than anything else. The rubber in that seal is now hard from age, so it seals poorly. The way it works is: the engine-side's oil pressure squeezes down on the skirt of that seal to close it on the shaft between the 2 chambers. When it leaks thru from being hard, the main oil PSI drops as it leaks thru there into the scavenge side, which also hastens it back to the oil tank, making a whole lot of extra flow seem like it is happening inside the tank. This sounds sorta like yours?

About that oil tunnel's plug and seal: they very seldom leak, or even weep. I only change them when these engines are fully apart. I have that O-ring is you need one, but I doubt yours does?

Sounds about right, I'll get the pump pulled out and change the seal, that definitely sounds like my issue. I'll report back if this solves my pressure issue.

I do not need the oil tunnel o-ring, mine does not weep. Thanks!

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2024, 08:00:13 AM »
Don't ride it any more until you do the oil pump work.
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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2024, 07:02:48 PM »
Back with some good news and some bad news!

My replacement gauge came in and seems to be reading the same, so unfortunately it's definitely low on oil pressure.

I pulled the pump out tonight and gave it an inspection and it seems to be in oddly good shape. All of the tolerances seemed to be within spec, save for some chips out of the rotors in some places. If any of you have the time, I filmed a quick video going over the details on some of the pieces - please let me know if anything looks off to you. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aROrrp9AicnSn4eU-N00teahin-Hg64W/view?usp=sharing

Even the seal between the 2 halves seemed to be in pretty good condition, but it was certainly very hard. I'm crossing my fingers that swapping it will fix my oil pressure issue, but it seems unlikely it was leaking that much through the seal.

I should have the pump in on Thursday hopefully and an update for you then. Any other ideas on pressure loss areas? It doesn't seem to be a small leak if I'm down 30ish PSI.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2024, 07:14:05 PM »
Back with some good news and some bad news!

My replacement gauge came in and seems to be reading the same, so unfortunately it's definitely low on oil pressure.

I pulled the pump out tonight and gave it an inspection and it seems to be in oddly good shape. All of the tolerances seemed to be within spec, save for some chips out of the rotors in some places. If any of you have the time, I filmed a quick video going over the details on some of the pieces - please let me know if anything looks off to you. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aROrrp9AicnSn4eU-N00teahin-Hg64W/view?usp=sharing

Even the seal between the 2 halves seemed to be in pretty good condition, but it was certainly very hard. I'm crossing my fingers that swapping it will fix my oil pressure issue, but it seems unlikely it was leaking that much through the seal.

I should have the pump in on Thursday hopefully and an update for you then. Any other ideas on pressure loss areas? It doesn't seem to be a small leak if I'm down 30ish PSI.

What are your oil pump measurements?

How do they compare with what Honda wants…?

Looks like you had some hard pieces go through…?

What are your rod and main bearing clearance..?

It’s hard for everyone to arm chair diagnosis without critical clearances…
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2024, 08:24:12 PM »
That inner rotor fro the pressure side (the smaller one) looks to have been parked for a long time with 'wet' oil in it, which makes those little dark spots. If they are actual craters (which means they were once rusty, polished off by later operation) they will cause lower-than-normal pressure. Look closely at them under magnification if you can, to see if they are really dimples now, or just stains in the steel.

If the pressure side is less than 30 PSI and the seal in between the chambers is as stiff as most are, the seal won't close on the shaft. This lets all the oil that can possibly flow thru that seal do just that, instead of going to the oil filter (and pressure bypass). When this happens, the flow into the oil tank becomes very high, which may be what you were seeing earlier? It is pumping oil from the tank, thru the seal, back to the tank. There needs to be more than 30 PSI to reach full flow thru the oil filter enroute to the bearings on the crankshaft. This is one reason why 10w40 oils don't work well in this engine: they get too thin and it escapes thru the pump and back to the tank instead of out into the crank.

Once the pressure reaches over 30-ish PSI the seal squeezes tightly (if it is flexible) onto the shaft and the leaking stops - until the seal wears out or gets hard again. In mine it was the years, and not the miles, when the flow dropped off due to the seal being hard (I think it was in 2010?) and during long sits at traffic lights I could hear the oil slowly become insufficient to reach the rockers, with them making more noise just before the red traffic light turned green again. Raising the idle speed (manually) would quiet them back down, but that made for a high (1800 RPM) idle and even more heat. A new seal fixed it until I rebuilt the whole engine in 2013 at 131k miles, so it was due. It got a better oil pump then, too!
« Last Edit: April 30, 2024, 08:29:39 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline scottly

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2024, 08:58:48 PM »


What are your rod and main bearing clearance..?

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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2024, 09:17:00 PM »
Does your crankshaft have all the steel ball bearing oil plugs in place..?
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