Author Topic: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?  (Read 3099 times)

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Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2024, 08:58:06 AM »
I ended up pulling the pump out again to focus on re-priming it, then stuck it back in. Still no pressure on the starter, but I didn't start it up.

Here is a video of the oil coming from the oil gallery on the starter.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-9FjLydIp2kLwjmZwIz0tZlZ1dyExj9c/view?usp=sharing

It looks like I have significant flow but finding this leak is such a PITA. I might still try a new pump but I'm doubtful that'll fix anything... looks like I might be taking this thing back apart... nooooooo

I made a plate that will bolt on in place of the oil pump and allow pumping oil pressure into the engine to prime the oil system and check for flow. I posted a picture in my K3 getaway bike thread in project shop.  I have not tripped over it lately but IO am sure with some rooting around in the shop I can find it. You could invest a few quarts of oil into seeing maybe where the oil GOES when you push it into the engine with the oil pan removed. It will pump oil into the filter housing just as the oil pump does.





I did not get around to making a pressure delivery system yet.
*Update, laid hands right on it...you are welcome to borrow it for a bit if you want as long as you send it back :-). Should fit in smallest USPS flat rate shipping. $4.95 each way to ship.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 09:07:00 AM by willbird »

Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2024, 12:28:26 PM »
Hey Will, thanks for the offer! I think I may be missing the point of how this applies to my situation. My pump seem to be working pretty well, and I can see a bit of oil coming from the crankshaft area when I turn the engine over which is normal. Oil is flowing to all parts of my engine, there just seems to be a pressure leak somewhere. I guess the plate would allow me to build up pressure with a separate pump?

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2024, 12:53:25 PM »
Hey Will, thanks for the offer! I think I may be missing the point of how this applies to my situation. My pump seem to be working pretty well, and I can see a bit of oil coming from the crankshaft area when I turn the engine over which is normal. Oil is flowing to all parts of my engine, there just seems to be a pressure leak somewhere. I guess the plate would allow me to build up pressure with a separate pump?

It’s a hint…🤔

Normal rod and main bearing clearances only drip oil when supplied by a 30 psig charged oil (prelube) pressure pot,  with engine off..

A big oil leak will show up instantly with a 30psig prelube pot.. You would hook the pot up, turn it on and try to see where it comes pouring out of.. that’s where your problem is.. same as trying straight 50w oil, if it doesn’t raise your pressure you’ve got a massive internal oil leak..without rod and main bearing clearances it’s a swag…(scientific wild ass guess)…
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 01:00:09 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2024, 01:06:32 PM »
Hey all, finally got my bike started after the first rebuild I've ever done, been crossing my fingers hoping I didn't f*** something up!

I've reviewed all of the threads regarding low oil pressure and just want to get confirmation on a few things. Based on the other threads, it seems like the issue could be my main bearings or a poor seal in my oil pump.
I've replaced the O-rings on the outside of the pump (avoided disassembly), and I've replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny O-ring near the shifter assembly. I'm pretty confident I didn't miss any.

I primed the oil pump before I installed it into the engine but I wasn't able to build any pressure on the starter, though I did see oil flowing in the tank. After I bit the bullet and started it up, I saw pressure immediately - but only 10lbs or so.
  • Oil - Valvoline 10w-40 with some zinc additives (should've gone thicker)
  • Pressure gauge / Oil light - Not 100% sure it's fully accurate, I just installed it during the rebuild and I was completely unaware of oil pressure before the rebuild. P/O seems to have removed the oil light. Here's the listing for the gauge: https://www.ebay.com/itm/276265584097?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=cwIrmiBIRuu&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=HZZ-Ei2zSi2&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
  • General pressure - Oil circulates through the tank seemingly way faster than before the rebuild, it shoots up and splashes off the top. Also, the top end flings oil of the rockers, so oil is there.
  • Idle pressure - I get 10lbs at idle and it looks to scale about 8-10lbs per 1000 rpms. I don't have a tach right now, so that's by feel.

My main question is this - how worried do I need to be?
I would really love to avoid taking the engine back out at all costs. It has oil pressure, and probably more than it did before, it just seems low. I don't push this bike hard or race it. Are there any simple things that I can do to improve pressure?

When you wrote, “I replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny…….”
Are you referring to the camshaft oil restricting orifices…? 
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Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2024, 01:37:38 PM »
Hey Will, thanks for the offer! I think I may be missing the point of how this applies to my situation. My pump seem to be working pretty well, and I can see a bit of oil coming from the crankshaft area when I turn the engine over which is normal. Oil is flowing to all parts of my engine, there just seems to be a pressure leak somewhere. I guess the plate would allow me to build up pressure with a separate pump?

My thinking was that if you used say a hand pump sprayer to feed 30+ psi oil in, and you had the oil pan removed you could see where the majority of the oil runs into your drain pan, or onto the floor and see where it is coming from. if it were coming somewhere other then where the crank, rods, and mains are maybe you have an issue under one of the side covers and do not need to remove the engine from frame to fix that ??

Bill
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 01:43:11 PM by willbird »

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2024, 01:52:40 PM »
Hey Will, thanks for the offer! I think I may be missing the point of how this applies to my situation. My pump seem to be working pretty well, and I can see a bit of oil coming from the crankshaft area when I turn the engine over which is normal. Oil is flowing to all parts of my engine, there just seems to be a pressure leak somewhere. I guess the plate would allow me to build up pressure with a separate pump?

It’s a hint…🤔

Normal rod and main bearing clearances only drip oil when supplied by a 30 psig charged oil (prelube) pressure pot,  with engine off..

A big oil leak will show up instantly with a 30psig prelube pot.. You would hook the pot up, turn it on and try to see where it comes pouring out of.. that’s where your problem is.. same as trying straight 50w oil, if it doesn’t raise your pressure you’ve got a massive internal oil leak..without rod and main bearing clearances it’s a swag…(scientific wild ass guess)…

I follow a guy named Steve Morris on Youtube. He makes several billet aluminum pushrod V* engines mostly intended for drag and drive type events. He uses as I recall 70W oil. One issue with a huge billet aluminum engine is the dimensional changes from ambient temperature to operating temperature. The dry oil sump belt came off his own car and he ran a couple 1/4 mile passes with no oil pump. They were not full 1/4 mile passes but the engine only suffered a minor issue with no oil pump at all. He is running some kind of coating on the bearings, Line2Line maybe ?? Pretty amazing really. Hmm maybe it was rev X additive.


Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2024, 04:48:31 PM »

Normal rod and main bearing clearances only drip oil when supplied by a 30 psig charged oil (prelube) pressure pot,  with engine off..

A big oil leak will show up instantly with a 30psig prelube pot.. You would hook the pot up, turn it on and try to see where it comes pouring out of.. that’s where your problem is.. same as trying straight 50w oil, if it doesn’t raise your pressure you’ve got a massive internal oil leak..without rod and main bearing clearances it’s a swag…(scientific wild ass guess)…

Just to clarify, the reason for trying this would be the increased pressure needed to overcome the bearings, therefore revealing a potential leak somewhere else? If it doesn't leak anywhere but the bearings at 30psi then those would likely be the issue, correct?

Sounds like a decent plan to me! Do you guys have any suggestions for a pump that's decently cost effective? Not sure if a usual hand pot could build 30psi.

When you wrote, “I replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny…….”
Are you referring to the camshaft oil restricting orifices…? 

Yes - I tried to pay extra attention to vital o-rings.

Bill, I've seen some of Steve Morris's stuff - guy builds some crazy engines!

« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 04:50:06 PM by Aceon »

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2024, 06:07:04 PM »

Normal rod and main bearing clearances only drip oil when supplied by a 30 psig charged oil (prelube) pressure pot,  with engine off..

A big oil leak will show up instantly with a 30psig prelube pot.. You would hook the pot up, turn it on and try to see where it comes pouring out of.. that’s where your problem is.. same as trying straight 50w oil, if it doesn’t raise your pressure you’ve got a massive internal oil leak..without rod and main bearing clearances it’s a swag…(scientific wild ass guess)…

Just to clarify, the reason for trying this would be the increased pressure needed to overcome the bearings, therefore revealing a potential leak somewhere else? If it doesn't leak anywhere but the bearings at 30psi then those would likely be the issue, correct?

Sounds like a decent plan to me! Do you guys have any suggestions for a pump that's decently cost effective? Not sure if a usual hand pot could build 30psi.

When you wrote, “I replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny…….”
Are you referring to the camshaft oil restricting orifices…? 

Yes - I tried to pay extra attention to vital o-rings.

Bill, I've seen some of Steve Morris's stuff - guy builds some crazy engines!

I had thought about a large pipe nipple with a ball valve at the bottom, and an air fitting at the top, hang it up like an Iv bag, fill it with oil, and put compressed air in the top. But a cheap hand sprayer according to google will easily do 30 psi I think maybe. many of them say "maximum of 40 psi" or some such in their sales literature.

https://www.agrisupply.com/hand-pump-sprayer/p/63024/

I'd try the cheapest one first..looks like Lowes has one for 12 bucks...and figure that it might be ruined by motor oil so be a one use item.

Bill

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2024, 05:37:02 PM »

Normal rod and main bearing clearances only drip oil when supplied by a 30 psig charged oil (prelube) pressure pot,  with engine off..

A big oil leak will show up instantly with a 30psig prelube pot.. You would hook the pot up, turn it on and try to see where it comes pouring out of.. that’s where your problem is.. same as trying straight 50w oil, if it doesn’t raise your pressure you’ve got a massive internal oil leak..without rod and main bearing clearances it’s a swag…(scientific wild ass guess)…

Just to clarify, the reason for trying this would be the increased pressure needed to overcome the bearings, therefore revealing a potential leak somewhere else? If it doesn't leak anywhere but the bearings at 30psi then those would likely be the issue, correct?

Sounds like a decent plan to me! Do you guys have any suggestions for a pump that's decently cost effective? Not sure if a usual hand pot could build 30psi.

When you wrote, “I replaced the head jets, O-rings, and that tiny…….”
Are you referring to the camshaft oil restricting orifices…? 

Yes - I tried to pay extra attention to vital o-rings.

Bill, I've seen some of Steve Morris's stuff - guy builds some crazy engines!

Yes, “I replaced the head jets, O-rings, and the tiny…..”.

 Or Yes, “I replaced the head jets’s o-rings, and the tiny….”

The sprayer will bird shows would be more economical than what I use..Mine is similar to a pressure brake bleeder without the rubber bladder because it holds 6 quarts if you fill it up..

If I was doing it. I would be interested in obtaining a higher cold pressure than your 10psig running pressure.
For instance if you turn your pressure pot on and you instantly get 30psig on your engine’s oil pressure gauge and it holds steady while the oil in the sprayer tank slowly flows through the engine rod and main bearings and oil jets, then I would say your pump can’t pump..

But however, if your oil pressure gauge never indicates any thing over 10psig and the oil in the sprayer tank quickly drains out the engine’s sump, a new oil pump is not going to correct what’s wrong…

You’re looking for instant sprayer tank oil flow and rapidly falling sprayer tank pressure. And a leak or leaks so big your engine’s oil pressure gauge can never get close to the sprayer tanks feed pressure.. It really doesn’t matter the starting pressure..good tight bearings don’t leak much, your watching for how fast and how soon oil starts coming out of the sump. Even  the cam shaft restrictor jet’s oil has to pass through the camshaft bearing journal’s first..this all takes several seconds before any considerable amount of oil starts flowing out the sump.. A big leak or leaks will leak instantly..

The 50w oil was just a suggestion you could try to determine if your oil pump and/or your rods and mains are worn out. The 50 weight should give you a higher initial pressure until it get hot, it’s really a lot thicker than a 10winter rated oil when cold.
It’s  hard for members to initially determine your engine experience and no one wants to be condescending.  When you post “everything looks good or fine” when someone asks about your clearances, we first assume you’ve checked them and they are “good” or “fine” and within the service manual’s specifications.

The 70w oil usually is used in nitromethane/alcohol engines that suffer from, as willbird indicates, structural stability as well as from oil dilution from fuel contamination..They burn that much fuel in 4 seconds and need whatever cushioning may be available from big clearances and very thick oil.. Most of that type of engines get their oil changed every pass..

PS I would not hook the pot up to the scavenge port that feeds the transmission. Engine supply port only..
« Last Edit: May 08, 2024, 05:55:41 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline newday777

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2024, 03:13:33 AM »
I ended up pulling the pump out again to focus on re-priming it, then stuck it back in. Still no pressure on the starter, but I didn't start it up.

Here is a video of the oil coming from the oil gallery on the starter.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-9FjLydIp2kLwjmZwIz0tZlZ1dyExj9c/view?usp=sharing

It looks like I have significant flow but finding this leak is such a PITA. I might still try a new pump but I'm doubtful that'll fix anything... looks like I might be taking this thing back apart... nooooooo
Do you still have the 10w40 in it??? If you do, dump it. Get 20w50 in it like HondaMan said above.
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #60 on: May 09, 2024, 03:47:07 AM »
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #61 on: May 09, 2024, 04:13:03 AM »
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

My dad bought my K2 new. All we had was 10W40 oil. Mostly he used "QVO" purchased from the Sohio station down the street. 56K miles and my bike uses no oil and has good oil pressure still. I'm using a 15W40 Rotella now, but that 10W40 did not hurt a thing IMHO.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #62 on: May 09, 2024, 08:34:02 AM »
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

My dad bought my K2 new. All we had was 10W40 oil. Mostly he used "QVO" purchased from the Sohio station down the street. 56K miles and my bike uses no oil and has good oil pressure still. I'm using a 15W40 Rotella now, but that 10W40 did not hurt a thing IMHO.
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

Especially with today’s available formulations.. Some 10w-40s heat tolerance is off the chart…

An interesting note I might add. My sons air-cooled 2014 Honda CB1100 manual recommends Honda’s GN4 10w-30 oil or SAE 10w-30 jaso T903 standard MA api SG or higher..

Guess what the Rod and Main bearing clearances are for the air cooled 2014 CB1100..? You’re correct, a mirror of the SOHC 750 and other Honda engines clearances..

That said, the 2014 does incorporate a wet sump/oil pump with the neatest plumbed oil cooler I’ve seen..only if the CB1300 was available here…🤩😍
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 08:37:21 AM by Tracksnblades1 »
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Offline willbird

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2024, 08:52:12 AM »
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

My dad bought my K2 new. All we had was 10W40 oil. Mostly he used "QVO" purchased from the Sohio station down the street. 56K miles and my bike uses no oil and has good oil pressure still. I'm using a 15W40 Rotella now, but that 10W40 did not hurt a thing IMHO.
I have had my CB750 for over 10 years and 60,000 kilometres of brisk use. It has for most of it's life with me employed 10W40 conventional oil in it. It now has a total of over 100,000 kilometres indicated. I can idle the machine at 500 rpm or lower and the red light never flickers. I start the bike and the light goes off instantly. Ambient temps I ride in range from 10c to 30c peaks but more often are 20-25c during the best summer riding season. I have had absolutely no issues and the oil filter is always clear. Oil selection should be based upon ambient and riding conditions. 10W40 is a good general weight oil to use, labels can be found on the bike and manual reference to the same. It was not a misprint but a recommendation by the engineers responsible for the creating publications. Oil quality is better these days so our situation has improved. Based upon keyboard engineering the bike should be dead lol.

Especially with today’s available formulations.. Some 10w-40s heat tolerance is off the chart…

An interesting note I might add. My sons air-cooled 2014 Honda CB1100 manual recommends Honda’s GN4 10w-30 oil or SAE 10w-30 jaso T903 standard MA api SG or higher..

Guess what the Rod and Main bearing clearances are for the air cooled 2014 CB1100..? You’re correct, a mirror of the SOHC 750 and other Honda engines clearances..

That said, the 2014 does incorporate a wet sump/oil pump with the neatest plumbed oil cooler I’ve seen..only if the CB1300 was available here…🤩😍

I used some leftover (it was new oil left over from my Tacoma) Mobil 1 5W30 when I woke my bike up from a 30 year nap, I just drained everything, refilled it, and heat cycled it a couple time before changing oil and filter. Oil pressure was fine with it. IMHO the lighter and lighter weights in modern history, along with variable volume oil pumps are all intended to save fractional MPG and overall increase corporate fuel economy. Modern mfg allows for a lot more rigid control of tolerances and getting the main bearings all in a straight line too.


Bill

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2024, 09:19:53 AM »
True Bill..

There’s a Canadian mechanical engineer that publishes an oil blog named 540 rat or rat 540…

He updates it regularly even though the original post date is included early on. It’s a set up for the reader that just glances over it and thinks it’s an outdated study..he tests oils that are sent in to him. Your Rotella is good but it’s like the shower room it may not measure up..

Anyway in reference to your post. The thinner oils 10w-30s and thinner 5w-20s and 5w-30s always provide the greatest maximum psig load performances..runs cooler in the bearing clearances than thicker oil..

If you google 540 rat it’ll show up. He addresses a lot of misinformation about oils, some repeated frequently here. For instance non-detergent oils, Rotella as a “low detergent oil”, not. New Rotella conventional has more than old conv, detergent oil foaming, etc..

You post like you can separate facts from bs fiction…
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Offline Aceon

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2024, 02:13:45 PM »
I appreciate all the input, bs or not  ;D

Honestly, I'm just gonna put some heavier oil in and send it. I've seen flow in all the right places. If I'm gonna be taking the engine out, I might as well be fixing something big right?

I'll let you know if it blows up hahah.

Offline Tracksnblades1

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Re: Low oil pressure - what's dangerous?
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2024, 02:29:48 PM »
I appreciate all the input, bs or not  ;D

Honestly, I'm just gonna put some heavier oil in and send it. I've seen flow in all the right places. If I'm gonna be taking the engine out, I might as well be fixing something big right?

I'll let you know if it blows up hahah.

This is what Honda wanted when it was new.. it’s what the main supply regulator is actually set at..
The test is at 4,000rpm at the indicated temperature..

I wish you had access to a local mechanic that would loan you a prelube pressure pot..
I’ve never inquired at AutoZone about wether they have a rental one or not..

Once you use one you’ll see the advantage of the pot pressure gauge and the engine oil pressure gauge equalize and then oil will start dripping from the rods,mains, and from above..a bad leak will leak instantly and your gauges may never equalize if the oil is feed by a standard 1/8” pipe fitting..
« Last Edit: May 09, 2024, 03:00:21 PM by Tracksnblades1 »
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