Author Topic: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?  (Read 3949 times)

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Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2024, 11:37:20 AM »
If everything works in the P position the wiring is wrong
Is it a replacement harness or original?
Did you remove any wires from ignition block?

Its an original harness . I just Plugged it back in and it worked the same as before restoration.

It looks as if the position of the wires were not correct. i switched using the diagram below.. i may have the red and black switched. right now everything functions excatly the same as before i switched the wires going to the switch. 3 wires appeared to be incorrect.

I am baffled how it worked so well with 3  wires out of place. and switching them changed nothing
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 11:44:12 AM by Ozzybud »
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2024, 12:23:02 PM »
I find it strange that it worked before and not after and i simply dont believe that a Honda harness or switch would have the contacts in the wrong place.
On the wiring diagram pages in the HONDA manual are diagrams saying what contact connects to what in every switch position.
Also i have never seen a Genuine Honda colour diagram so i would not trust it 100%
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2024, 12:28:16 PM »
I find it strange that it worked before and not after and i simply dont believe that a Honda harness or switch would have the contacts in the wrong place.
On the wiring diagram pages in the HONDA manual are diagrams saying what contact connects to what in every switch position.
Also i have never seen a Genuine Honda colour diagram so i would not trust it 100%

It worked before and after.
The switch is good
The spades come out of the nylon sockets by pressing in the right spot.The PO must have pulled all spades for some reason and not put them back correctly.
The color diagram matches the one posted out of the book. Neither states if black/red should be up or down.
That's what I am looking for now is the correct location of black / red
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 12:31:09 PM by Ozzybud »
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2024, 01:59:50 PM »
If you go all the way through the HONDA manual, NOT ANY AFTERMARKET you will find the following info
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2024, 03:55:53 PM »
Thank you Bryan for the clear shots! And for your help and quick responces.

looks like someone in the Past had moved a couple wires in the Plug going to the switch. The lower outer black and brown wires were switched.The connector wire locations would have never been the first place i looked.

Now the headlight is very bright with 11.6 volts.

This will not help Tenn_CB400F with his issue. Looking forward to seeing what he finds out his solution to be.

Ozzybud
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2024, 06:05:59 PM »
No problem, just trying to stress the most important source is the original Honda one.
If you go to sohc.co.uk and look in ashs dropbox you will pind the complete honda manual for all the fours plus parts books, we are a freindly bunch here in uk even if we can be a bit acerbic with the wit
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2024, 07:08:45 PM »
Thank you! I found it on this site earlier under Manuals & Technical Documentation.

I am a member of the UK forum as well

You are up late
« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 07:30:43 AM by Ozzybud »
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2024, 08:37:09 PM »
I "work" nights
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2024, 07:49:08 AM »
[...]
This will not help Tenn_CB400F with his issue. Looking forward to seeing what he finds out his solution to be.
Ozzybud
According to measurements Tenn posted in Reply#21, he has a resistance in the NEG path which results in a V drop of 4,9 V, which is a lot.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 07:54:09 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2024, 10:08:30 AM »
I'm still looking and testing. No silver bullet so far but I have to check the ground for the coils per Ozzybud's suggestion.

Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2024, 12:54:13 PM »
If everything works in the P position the wiring is wrong
Is it a replacement harness or original?
Did you remove any wires from ignition block?

Its an original harness . I just Plugged it back in and it worked the same as before restoration.

It looks as if the position of the wires were not correct. i switched using the diagram below.. i may have the red and black switched. right now everything functions excatly the same as before i switched the wires going to the switch. 3 wires appeared to be incorrect.

I am baffled how it worked so well with 3  wires out of place. and switching them changed nothing

Edit: mine matches the picture from the old manual. I was looking at it wrong somehow.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 11:35:20 AM by Tenn_CB400f »

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2024, 01:54:10 PM »
I'm still looking and testing. No silver bullet so far but I have to check the ground for the coils per Ozzybud's suggestion.
Contrary to popular belief, the coils on our bikes do not need a ground. In the vicinity of the coils is a thick green wire however connected to the frame. Check its connection. You now know how to detect V drop.
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Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2024, 02:02:26 PM »
I'm still looking and testing. No silver bullet so far but I have to check the ground for the coils per Ozzybud's suggestion.
Contrary to popular belief, the coils on our bikes do not need a ground. In the vicinity of the coils is a thick green wire however connected to the frame. Check its connection. You now know how to detect V drop.

We were discussing the green ground near the coils. Of course the points do the grounding of the coil circuit.

Pretty sure the "popular belief" of the coils needing to be grounded is not popular.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 02:04:39 PM by Ozzybud »
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #63 on: May 24, 2024, 12:30:33 PM »
I'm still looking and testing. No silver bullet so far but I have to check the ground for the coils per Ozzybud's suggestion.
Contrary to popular belief, the coils on our bikes do not need a ground. In the vicinity of the coils is a thick green wire however connected to the frame. Check its connection. You now know how to detect V drop.

I understand that and mis-spoke. I am not finding that wire, however. Any particular attaching point?

Right side:


Left side:





Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #64 on: May 24, 2024, 01:14:40 PM »
I'm still looking and testing. No silver bullet so far but I have to check the ground for the coils per Ozzybud's suggestion.
Contrary to popular belief, the coils on our bikes do not need a ground. In the vicinity of the coils is a thick green wire however connected to the frame. Check its connection. You now know how to detect V drop.

I understand that and mis-spoke. I am not finding that wire, however. Any particular attaching point?

Right side:


Left side:


My mistake. On the 400 it's right behind the tank going through the battery box and into a tab on the frame.
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #65 on: May 24, 2024, 02:14:09 PM »
OK, if I was Tenn, I'd do a measurement to detect an eventual V drop between that wire and the battery's NEG terminal. So - in a live circuit - one probe on that green wire and the other on the battery terminal. Then - when needed - I'd undo the connection and clean all contact parts with sandpaper or a copper wirebrush. Then refit and repeat measurement. Please report back.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2024, 10:52:58 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2024, 11:44:42 AM »
OK, if I was Tenn, I'd do a measurement to detect an eventual V drop between that wire and the battery's NEG terminal. So - in a live circuit - one probe on that green wire and the other on the battery terminal. Then - when needed - I'd undo the connection and clean all contact parts with sandpaper or a copper wirebrush. Then refit and repeat measurement. Please report back.

Maybe I am measuring it wrong, but key on and key off, I get exactly the same measurement from the + terminal on the battery and that green wire that I do between the two battery terminals.

Is it possible to perform that V4 test specifically on a ground?

Thanks guys!

Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2024, 12:07:39 PM »
My 1975 CB400F has the exact voltages as yours when Static.
When I unplug the coils everything jumps up to near battery  voltage. My assumption was  the coils draw a lot of current(stock everything).
It runs great and charges fine.
I did have an issue right after the restoration this spring. As the battery was not fully charged and the short rides around the neighborhood was not enough to get a full charge. Had dim lights, slow blinkers,  and would bog out over 6000rpm. . After getting battery to full charge all symptoms cleared up.
There is even a blurb in the little owners manual about needing to ride above 2000rpm for a bit to obtain a full charge.
So at this point it's not a problem. Time to riide!!

I tried this as well at your suggestion. When I unplug the coils and turn on the key, I get 10.5v at the coil power source (black w/white tracer), but still only 7.9v at the headlight.

But the battery has always been fully charged (on this recent expedition).

Back to the drawing board!


Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2024, 01:54:59 PM »
Did you get the replacement Fuse Block yet?
1976 Z50A YELLOW
1970 CT70 BLUE
1971 CT70H ORANGE
1972 CT70H GREEN
1973 CL200 BLUE
1973 CB350F RED
1975 CB360T RED
1975 CB400F BLUE
1975 CB550 ORANGE
1976 CB750F RED

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2024, 02:51:06 PM »
Tenn, you did not measure it right. The idea is to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes the Vdrop you have measured in the 4th step of your V-4 measurement, you have reported us. Have another look at my explanation in reply#3. BTW, the coils have nothing to do with it. Your lights are dim, so there's either a resistance in the pos path to or in the neg path from that light, a resistance that 'eats' volts so to speak. The 4th step was to check the neg path. It is there you found a considerable Vdrop, provided you have informed us correctly. Now you have to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes that Vdrop. First suspect is where that green wire contacts the frame because it happens to be part of the neg path for the volts to travel from both the headlamp and blinkers via the frame to the Batt minus, so there's a good chance the problem is right there. Have a look at the pic Ozzybud has posted. That connection does not look particularly good, does it. It looks corroded. Yours is maybe as bad as Ozzybud's. Put IGN key in ON and the headlight or a blinker ON and then one probe on that green wire and the other on the Batt minus. Report what voltage you read. Ideally it should be zero. But I expect you will read a couple of volts which indicates not all volts make it to the Batt minus, because of a resistance where that green wire connects to the frame, probably caused by rust. This resistance 'eats' volts. Reread reply #3 for the principle of the V-4 measurement. It's dead simple.
If you fail to understand it, then just disconnect - key switch now OFF - where that green wire contacts the frame and clean, de-rust the eye connector, the bolt and the spot where the bolt contacts the frame. When needed, use sandpaper, so there will be a perfect ground. Reconnect and see if your lights are now brighter.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 03:54:57 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2024, 05:46:49 AM »
Did you get the replacement Fuse Block yet?
Not yet! And I need t do so. I did clean up the contacts (MAIN fuse was crusty) and replace just to keep testing.

Also thanks to Deltarider for the remedial education!

Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2024, 05:47:17 AM »
Tenn, you did not measure it right. The idea is to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes the Vdrop you have measured in the 4th step of your V-4 measurement, you have reported us. Have another look at my explanation in reply#3. BTW, the coils have nothing to do with it. Your lights are dim, so there's either a resistance in the pos path to or in the neg path from that light, a resistance that 'eats' volts so to speak. The 4th step was to check the neg path. It is there you found a considerable Vdrop, provided you have informed us correctly. Now you have to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes that Vdrop. First suspect is where that green wire contacts the frame because it happens to be part of the neg path for the volts to travel from both the headlamp and blinkers via the frame to the Batt minus, so there's a good chance the problem is right there. Have a look at the pic Ozzybud has posted. That connection does not look particularly good, does it. It looks corroded. Yours is maybe as bad as Ozzybud's. Put IGN key in ON and the headlight or a blinker ON and then one probe on that green wire and the other on the Batt minus. Report what voltage you read. Ideally it should be zero. But I expect you will read a couple of volts which indicates not all volts make it to the Batt minus, because of a resistance where that green wire connects to the frame, probably caused by rust. This resistance 'eats' volts. Reread reply #3 for the principle of the V-4 measurement. It's dead simple.
If you fail to understand it, then just disconnect - key switch now OFF - where that green wire contacts the frame and clean, de-rust the eye connector, the bolt and the spot where the bolt contacts the frame. When needed, use sandpaper, so there will be a perfect ground. Reconnect and see if your lights are now brighter.

Thank you again! On it!

Offline Tenn_CB400f

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2024, 07:03:04 AM »
Tenn, you did not measure it right. The idea is to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes the Vdrop you have measured in the 4th step of your V-4 measurement, you have reported us. Have another look at my explanation in reply#3. BTW, the coils have nothing to do with it. Your lights are dim, so there's either a resistance in the pos path to or in the neg path from that light, a resistance that 'eats' volts so to speak. The 4th step was to check the neg path. It is there you found a considerable Vdrop, provided you have informed us correctly. Now you have to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes that Vdrop. First suspect is where that green wire contacts the frame because it happens to be part of the neg path for the volts to travel from both the headlamp and blinkers via the frame to the Batt minus, so there's a good chance the problem is right there. Have a look at the pic Ozzybud has posted. That connection does not look particularly good, does it. It looks corroded. Yours is maybe as bad as Ozzybud's. Put IGN key in ON and the headlight or a blinker ON and then one probe on that green wire and the other on the Batt minus. Report what voltage you read. Ideally it should be zero. But I expect you will read a couple of volts which indicates not all volts make it to the Batt minus, because of a resistance where that green wire connects to the frame, probably caused by rust.

Ok, testing this way I get just 0.010V, which doesn't seem to indicate a problem with that ground wire?

I think I will get the new fuse block before testing further, but what would be a way to check on the right-hand switch, if the headlight power runs through it?

« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 07:05:24 AM by Tenn_CB400f »

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #73 on: May 27, 2024, 08:12:29 AM »
Voltage in on black and outon whatever colour it is
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Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB400f voltage loss between battery and pretty much everything?
« Reply #74 on: May 27, 2024, 11:34:39 AM »
Tenn, you did not measure it right. The idea is to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes the Vdrop you have measured in the 4th step of your V-4 measurement, you have reported us. Have another look at my explanation in reply#3. BTW, the coils have nothing to do with it. Your lights are dim, so there's either a resistance in the pos path to or in the neg path from that light, a resistance that 'eats' volts so to speak. The 4th step was to check the neg path. It is there you found a considerable Vdrop, provided you have informed us correctly. Now you have to detect where in the neg path that resistance is, that causes that Vdrop. First suspect is where that green wire contacts the frame because it happens to be part of the neg path for the volts to travel from both the headlamp and blinkers via the frame to the Batt minus, so there's a good chance the problem is right there. Have a look at the pic Ozzybud has posted. That connection does not look particularly good, does it. It looks corroded. Yours is maybe as bad as Ozzybud's. Put IGN key in ON and the headlight or a blinker ON and then one probe on that green wire and the other on the Batt minus. Report what voltage you read. Ideally it should be zero. But I expect you will read a couple of volts which indicates not all volts make it to the Batt minus, because of a resistance where that green wire connects to the frame, probably caused by rust.

Ok, testing this way I get just 0.010V, which doesn't seem to indicate a problem with that ground wire?

I think I will get the new fuse block before testing further, but what would be a way to check on the right-hand switch, if the headlight power runs through it?
According to your initial reportng the results of your V4-measurement, the Vdrop is somewhere in the NEG path. But maybe your test and/or your reporting has been incorrect. BTW, that's why in reply #69 I added in a subordinate clause: provided you have informed us correctly ;).
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