Author Topic: Charging Problem  (Read 2511 times)

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Offline The Lone Builder

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Charging Problem
« on: May 26, 2024, 10:42:54 AM »
I have a charging problem that is defying every effort to solve.

I’ve posted this on my Belfast-2-Belfast-By-Bike post, but thought I’d try to get a wider audience to get an answer.

A couple of weeks ago, my bike wouldn’t start with the starter, but fired up immediately with the kick start. Thinking I might have left the parking light on or something, I simply rode it for the day and it seemed to start working again.

Then it did the same thing again. The voltage at this point was 6.5V and the charging system could only raise that to 7.5. I put it on charge overnight and the voltage recovered.

I checked everything out and was now getting 14,5 volts at 3000 rpm, so I thought it was puzzling but since it  charging, all was well.

Not so. A few days later while almost at my destination the engine died and refused to start again, even with kicking. A jump start allowed me to continue the journey. I put it on charge and ordered a new battery to me next destination. I should have stayed put!

60 miles from “home” the bike died and again refused to start. I got roadside assistance and again a jump start worked. Worried that it was getting late and I would have to use my headlight, I opted, on the suggestion of the assistance guy, to get a battery from AutoZone. He checked that had one, took me there and brought me back to the bike. “Once you get your other battery,” he assured me, “you can just return this one.”

So I put it in and she off. Riding now in the dark, on wet roads and on the fringes of a storm I was most alarmed when my lights started to fade. I turned down to parking light only and continued. Eventually I was riding more or less blind, just about able to see the centre and the side lines on the road. I had little choice at this stage.

Anyway I made it to within 70m of my destination before the engine died. I pushed it the rest of the way and put it on charge.

Next morning the (new remember) battery was recharged so I took it out and rode about 60 miles with no problem. However I decided to investigate the cause of the problem as I cannot continue all the way to my journey’s end in Washington State with the possibility of a dead battery leaving me stranded at any moment.

So here’s what I’ve found. To remember is that I have fitted a 750A field coil, and my regulator and rectified are modern replacements.

Rectifier checks out; resistance and connections at the alternator check out;  Ground is good judging be no drop in voltage when measured at the battery -ve and a distant point.

Starting with a battery at 12.8V, it dropped momentarily to 11V when I pressed the starter.

The measured voltages, with no load were:

 1000      2000      3000
 12.6       13.3       13.5-14

After the test the voltage was 13.1V

I then repeated the test with headlight main beam on - standard halogen bulb

 1000      2000      3000              4000
 12.3       12.5       12.7 rising.     12.9 rising

 12.3, 12.5, 12.7 and rising and at 4000 rpm 12.9 rising.

I measured the current flowing from the fuse and it was:

4A at 1, 2 & 3000 rpm unloaded and
8A with the headlight on at 1000 & 2000 rpm.

Then I unplugged the white wire at the regulator, and connected the ammeter.(red to terminal and black to wire) It read 0.2A.
When I changed the connection to the +ve battery terminal, there was no change.

Next I disconnected the green at the regulator and jumped black to white. Voltage at 3000 was 12.4 and steady. Removing the jumper made no difference.

I really don’t know what to make of this. On the one hand everything seem to be working, but on the other not so:

With no load battery voltage rises with revs as expected
With a load the battery voltage doesn’t rise
The alternator seem to be putting out an appropriate current, rising when loaded
The individual components - field coil and alternator don’t seem to be working

I am leaning towards a faulty regulator so will go now and remove it, but any thoughts in the meantime would be appreciated.

Sean
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 07:20:43 AM by The Lone Builder »
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2024, 11:53:36 AM »
Is this original reg and rec or aftermarket electronic?
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2024, 12:36:49 PM »
After market.

Made by a fellow biker in Germany using the original casings.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2024, 01:00:12 PM »
Sounds like possibly a dry or cracked slder joint in the unit, if you have them i would be tempted to refit original and retest.
It could also be a fractured wire or joint in the stator or connectors, it is rare but i have seen it( like less than 1% of failures)
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2024, 02:52:18 PM »
Is there a 'link' to the regulator itself, maybe a post from the guy who built it for you? I'm in the dark as to how it would work/not work without knowing exactly what is inside.

The OEM regulators (after the sandcasts) are a 'progressive' type that moves the middle relay contact in between the upper and lower contacts according to the battery's voltage. Below about 12.1 volts the coil cannot pull the upper contacts open, so it 'defaults' to HI charge mode. As the voltage increases past 12.8 volts or so, the middle contact pulls away from the upper one: this is "mid-charge" mode, roughly about 4-5 amps. The higher the battery voltage, the [physically] further this middle contact is pulled away from the upper one. When the voltage reaches over 13.6 volts it pulls the middle contact all the way against the grounding contact, shorting the field coil's windings and dropping the charge rate to less than 0.2 amps.

I have recently seen some Chinese-made regulators like these that used a simple relay with a zener diode. This diode drops 12.0 volts across it's reverse-connected contacts. When the battery voltage is higher than 12.0 volts it conducts and powers the relay coil to open the contacts, dropping charge rate to about 2 amps or so because the old wirewound resistor on this unit is replaced with the coil's resistance instead, so mid-charge is lower than with the OEM unit's tapped resistor. The zero-charge mode doesn't exist in this regulator, though.

On yours, see if there is a tapped (3-terminal) wirewound resistor still mounted to it? This resistor gets connected in between +12 volts (Black wire) and the field coil when in mid-charge mode, which is how the OEM system develops 3 charge rates, HI, MEDIUM, LOW. If this isn't there, then I'm not clearly understanding how yours works(?).
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Offline M 750K6

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2024, 03:07:29 PM »
 All may be well: New batteries don't come fully charged. It could be pretty low if it had been on the shelf a while. You then put it straight on to power headlights and all, that may explain your failure with the new one, until you charged it up overnight. Then, possibly, as you now have a fully charged battery, the regulator is doing what it should, so it doesn't cook your battery.

Offline rotortiller

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2024, 04:12:42 PM »
Sounds like maybe a heat sensitive issue, once the component gets warm it stops working. Could be the reg, could be a connection or winding. When the voltage won't stay 14ish at reasonable rpm (3 grand+) something is funky. The field coil can run direct with an external wire to see if it is indeed a regulation issue plus field coil resistance may be verified warm and failed. Should be easy enough to find a stock reg and rectifier. Driving with the tail and headlight off will extend range quite a bit. Some guys will check for magnetism at the alternator casing with a steel bolt looking for activity, if it has that it could be the power production windings, connections or rectifier section. Most any shop should be able to figure it out seeing how simple the bike is (no ECU). If all is well with the charging system then there may be a drain that simply over tasks the system. 9 amps with the kill switch and lights on is static is pretty normal if memory serves. Something as simple as heated grips can do that or an oversized headlight bulb. 

You guys were in that area working the shifter mechanism, something could have been partially loosened up and finally came to get even :)
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 04:16:35 PM by rotortiller »

Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2024, 07:15:36 PM »
OK,where to start?

The regulator: I opened it up today and all the components look OK. The insides look like the pic attached. I don’t know if the colours/shapes mean anything to anyone. The resistor is still there. That pic is from a few years ago in Sudan; the black transistor (circled) in the current one is intact. I did think to contact the German guy and maybe I’ll do that now, if I can find his email address.l

I looked at the connection from the alternator. (They are all connected, John) Whilst they are mucky and the covers are hard, all the connections seem quite tight. I didn’t play about too much because, as you said Mark, the space down there is limited.

Now about the heat. The engine gets very hot when run, even slowly - water boils on the fins. When I took the regulator out earlier today, after doing all the tests, it felt warm.


The field coil can run direct with an external wire to see if it is indeed a regulation issue plus field coil resistance may be verified warm and failed. Does this just involve connecting white wire from coil to battery +ve? The field coil resistance this morning was 4.6Ω. So I should check it again hot and cold?

Some guys will check for magnetism at the alternator casing with a steel bolt looking for activity, if it has that it could be the power production windings, connections or rectifier section. I did that with a feeler gauge and didn’t get any activity; i.e. it didn’t stick.

Most any shop should be able to figure it out seeing how simple the bike is (no ECU). Has anyone any suggestions on this - I am in Hampton, just north of Baltimore? The local shop that I just slaked in a review because of their charges, costs $150 and hour for labour!

I’m on a trip across the US, Bryan, so I don’t have spares.

With my new, new battery which I charged overnight, I went for a run today. It wasn’t fast due to my riding companion, but I kept the revs up at 3000+. For the first 55 km I ran only the pilot light but for the last 20km I had the headlight on also. The voltage on return was 12.1 with engine stopped and this dropped to 11.9 when I ran the engine again. So the battery is not being charged. After a couple of hours charging it is up to 12.5.

For lack of anything else to do, tomorrow I’ll take the alternator cover off and …. well, see.  :-\


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Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2024, 07:42:48 PM »
Dont take the cover off yet.
With kill switch off and lights off
Put voltmeter accross battery and check voltage.
Leave red lead on pos and move black to engine, volts should be same, if not earth is bad
Now put voltmeter black back on battery neg and check voltage at the following points in order.
1 solenoid bat terminal
2 fuse input connection
3 fuse output connection
4 red lead into ignition switch
Now turn ign switch on and check red input again
5 black lead out of switch
6 black lead at regulator

Now i dont want to sound snotty but you MUST do them in that order and not wander off testing elswhere.

To test field jumper black to white when disconnected from reg and see if you get magnetism at casing, if not white direct to battery and check again.

Long distance electrical diagnosis is the worst thing to try and do, made worse by the pond in the way, luckily for you i work nights and start at 7pm UK time.
If you do the tests i gave and only those i will do my best to help you.

By the way transistors can fail and can also intermittently fail with heat and if you can find a breakers all the fours use the same reg but the 400(not sure about 350) terminals point inwards not down
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 07:46:15 PM by bryanj »
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Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2024, 08:15:44 PM »
Thanks Bryan.
I’ve done some of that already, but I’ll repeat in the order you suggest in the morning.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2024, 08:31:37 PM »
Edit. First, check for magnetism at the screws on the alternator cover, with the key on, engine not running.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 08:44:39 PM by scottly »
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2024, 08:49:56 PM »
OK, I see you did check and found no magnetism. Disconnect the white wire from the reg, and measure the resistance from the white wire and the battery - terminal.
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2024, 08:50:15 PM »
Following
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2024, 08:54:38 PM »


The field coil can run direct with an external wire to see if it is indeed a regulation issue plus field coil resistance may be verified warm and failed. Does this just involve connecting white wire from coil to battery +ve? The field coil resistance this morning was 4.6Ω.


Yes, jumper the white field wire directly to battery + and check for magnetism.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2024, 09:05:18 PM »
If the magnetism test passes with the white wire jumped to battery +, check the voltage on the black reg wire, and then the white wire, with the key on, engine not running. If you have 12V going into the reg on the black wire, and a significantly lower voltage coming out of the reg on the white wire, the reg is bad.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2024, 09:20:30 PM »
All the advice is good but dont forget the green from field needs to go to a good earth(ground to our us friends) or the test means nothing
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2024, 09:24:40 PM »
If the magnetism test passes with the white wire jumped to battery +, check the voltage on the black reg wire, and then the white wire, with the key on, engine not running. If you have 12V going into the reg on the black wire, and a significantly lower voltage coming out of the reg on the white wire, the reg is bad.

Where you say "if the magnetism test passes.. "
When you give this magnetism test,what is the correct("passes")outcome of it;magnetism at the stator cover is desired? or not ?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2024, 09:50:39 PM »
Lone:
If you can coax a copy of the schematic of the fancy regulator from your friend and forward it to me for a private viewing, I may be of more help. Tell him that I FOR SURE have no intent of copying his gadget: I have a great fondness for Honda's OEM regulator in these bikes. ;)

Besides, I have too many other gadgets in the fire now, anyway...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2024, 09:58:57 PM »
All the advice is good but dont forget the green from field needs to go to a good earth(ground to our us friends) or the test means nothing
If the field isn't grounded, the magnetism test with the white field wire connected to battery + will fail. Besides, the OP has stated that the field coil resistance to ground tested good.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2024, 10:02:35 PM »
If the magnetism test passes with the white wire jumped to battery +, check the voltage on the black reg wire, and then the white wire, with the key on, engine not running. If you have 12V going into the reg on the black wire, and a significantly lower voltage coming out of the reg on the white wire, the reg is bad.

Where you say "if the magnetism test passes.. "
When you give this magnetism test,what is the correct("passes")outcome of it;magnetism at the stator cover is desired? or not ?
Bill, the field coil needs to be magnetized before the alternator can produce power. No magnetism, no power. ;)
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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2024, 11:15:09 PM »
If the magnetism test passes with the white wire jumped to battery +, check the voltage on the black reg wire, and then the white wire, with the key on, engine not running. If you have 12V going into the reg on the black wire, and a significantly lower voltage coming out of the reg on the white wire, the reg is bad.

Where you say "if the magnetism test passes.. "
When you give this magnetism test,what is the correct("passes")outcome of it;magnetism at the stator cover is desired? or not ?
Bill, the field coil needs to be magnetized before the alternator can produce power. No magnetism, no power. ;)

Ok.
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  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2024, 07:18:11 AM »
Thanks all. Results time:

Scottly:
  • Battery voltage:       13,29
  • Voltage “at engine”: 13,28
  • White to +ve terminal: open
  • Mag test: No magnetism on the case, but there is on the crash bar! See photo
  • Voltage at Black:   12,6
  • Voltage at White:    12,6

The last two reading were done after everything else so battery voltage was 12,9 at this point.

Brian:
Ignition off:
  • Battery voltage:       12,98
  • Voltage “at engine”: 12,98
  • Solenoid:                 12,97
  • Fuse in & out:          12,97[/li
    • Red to key:              12,96

    Ignition on:
    • Red to key:            12,6
    • Black from key:      12,4
    • Black at regulator   12,4

    Coil tests as above.

    Battery voltage after a rest, while I typed this: 12,92.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2024, 07:22:57 AM by The Lone Builder »
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Offline The Lone Builder

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2024, 07:19:26 AM »
Lone:
If you can coax a copy of the schematic of the fancy regulator from your friend and forward it to me for a private viewing, I may be of more help. Tell him that I FOR SURE have no intent of copying his gadget: I have a great fondness for Honda's OEM regulator in these bikes. ;)

Besides, I have too many other gadgets in the fire now, anyway...
I’ve reached out to him. We’ll see if he replies.
CB750 K2 - From Belfast-2-Belfast
CB750 K1 - The less, said the better!
CB450 K1 - Stalled.
CB400F Supersport - Not Rusty any more!

Follow my journey through Africa @ http://Belfast2BelfastByBike.com

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2024, 07:54:02 AM »
This is quite a mystery!!
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Offline bryanj

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Re: Charging Problem
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2024, 08:11:28 AM »
What you need to do now is disconnect the three yellow wires from stator, usually at plug on electric panel BUT make sure white and green are connected, and measure AC voltage on each of the 3 pairs with engine running at about 3000 rpm
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!