Author Topic: CB550K weird noise at idle  (Read 1197 times)

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Offline galoebi

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CB550K weird noise at idle
« on: May 30, 2024, 05:54:37 AM »
Hello everyone,
I recently bought a 1977 CB 550 K with only 18'000km. The bike is in very good condition and the engine seems to be running pretty good.
My problem is, that the engine makes a pronounced noise when idling which you can see in this video:  The video shows a cold start. The sound seems to be getting less pronounced when the engine is warm but it never goes away completely. When driving everything feels completely normal and the sound goes away (because of higher rpm).
I'm a bit worried it might be a worn main bearing but I'm not very experienced. What do you guys think of this sound?

Also I'm very new to this forum, so please tell me if you need more info.
Elias

Offline denward17

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2024, 06:09:59 AM »
Welcome to the forum.....

Cam chain adjusted?

Carbs synced?

Offline galoebi

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2024, 06:19:28 AM »
Yes I already adjusted the cam chain (it was making a bit of noise before and now the chain noise is gone).
I was not able to sync the carbs because I don't have the tool for 4 carbs yet. Could this sound come from the carbs not being synced properly? It holds idle pretty well so I thinks carbs should not be too far off.

Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2024, 06:22:54 AM »
Engine is not firing on all cylinders. Most likely a blockage in the idle circuit, the PD carbs are famous for having jets block etc. I'd also suspect the carbs are out of balance but until you get it running on all 4 it's difficult to tell. Check to see if all the pipes feel the same heat, be careful, only do this just after starting.

The main causes of noise at tickover in these engines are worn primary chain, it starts to hit the oil gallery underneath it and that's normally the loud knocking sound you can hear, also the primary drive rubbers go hard so they fail to stop the lash of the chain at tickover, good way to test that is to put the bike in gear, let the clutch out until it just starts to grab and the noise should go away as the primary chain tensions up under load.

Next cause is the camchain but that's easy to fix, just adjust it. Unless the tensioner is buggered it should stop that noise. At 18K I doubt it's worn out yet but if you end up splitting the engine I'd replace it as a matter of course.

The last one is the clutch basket, for some reason the 550 has a real problem with the basket damping rubbers, the 500 doesn't seem to suffer half as badly, I've dismantled 7 clutch baskets to date and all the 3 500 rubbers were still ok, the 4 550 baskets were gone.  Test the basket if you remove it, grab the gear on the back and try and move it back and front, if it moves at all it's buggered. The solution is ideally to replace the rubbers but they were never available from Honda, I found a firm making them in Europe but at 50 euros for the 6 they ain't exactly cheap and they won't post out of mainland Europe, even to the UK they refused. I had to get a mate to buy them and post them onwards. If you can't source rubbers a new or good second hand basket is the answer. A mate with a 550K3 had the dreaded knock at tickover, traced it to the basket, he bought one of my sets of rubbers and it's now silent again so they do work.

Offline galoebi

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2024, 06:38:11 AM »
thanks for the answer!
Engine is not firing on all cylinders. Most likely a blockage in the idle circuit, the PD carbs are famous for having jets block etc. I'd also suspect the carbs are out of balance but until you get it running on all 4 it's difficult to tell. Check to see if all the pipes feel the same heat, be careful, only do this just after starting.
By engine not firing on all cylinders you mean always or just at idle? Because when driving it pulls pretty good, so at least then it should be running on all 4 cylinders. But I will definitely check the heat on the pipes.

The last one is the clutch basket, for some reason the 550 has a real problem with the basket damping rubbers, the 500 doesn't seem to suffer half as badly, I've dismantled 7 clutch baskets to date and all the 3 500 rubbers were still ok, the 4 550 baskets were gone.  Test the basket if you remove it, grab the gear on the back and try and move it back and front, if it moves at all it's buggered. The solution is ideally to replace the rubbers but they were never available from Honda, I found a firm making them in Europe but at 50 euros for the 6 they ain't exactly cheap and they won't post out of mainland Europe, even to the UK they refused. I had to get a mate to buy them and post them onwards. If you can't source rubbers a new or good second hand basket is the answer. A mate with a 550K3 had the dreaded knock at tickover, traced it to the basket, he bought one of my sets of rubbers and it's now silent again so they do work.
Would it be bad driving around like this or is it just an annoying sound?

And you would not suspect worn main bearings?

Offline jonda500

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2024, 06:44:48 AM »
Engine is not firing on all cylinders.

Well I don't agree with that, it sounds fine to me - except for that rattle which I totally agree with Oddjob:

"The main causes of noise at tickover in these engines are worn primary chain, it starts to hit the oil gallery underneath it and that's normally the loud knocking sound you can hear, also the primary drive rubbers go hard so they fail to stop the lash of the chain at tickover, good way to test that is to put the bike in gear, let the clutch out until it just starts to grab and the noise should go away as the primary chain tensions up under load."

So I would do this ^ test and see if that is where all the noise is from. If it is, it can usually run for a very long time like that before starting to rub through the oil gallery.
John
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Offline galoebi

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2024, 07:03:46 AM »
I tested it now.
All four exhausts heat up the same amount. Putting it in gear and releasing the clutch does not remove the sound.
If its the clutch basket the sound should be louder on the right side of the engine, right?

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2024, 07:17:10 AM »
I tested it now.
All four exhausts heat up the same amount. Putting it in gear and releasing the clutch does not remove the sound.
If its the clutch basket the sound should be louder on the right side of the engine, right?

Take out the dipstick when running and the noise will be apparant that it is coming from the clutch basket. I found my replacement rubbers on Ebay.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 07:51:26 AM »
First things first. Verify you have an idle of a true 1100 rpm. I once worked on a CB550K3 that did not have a true 1100 rpm before it showed 1400 on its tacho, meaning if you would try to set the idle at 1100 looking at that particular gauge, you'd be trying to set an idle at 700 rpm. Won't work, only Oddjob can achieve that  ;). Also: practically all CB500/550s sooner or later will have a spark not reaching its destiny in the combustion chamber when the sparkplugcap and/or the HT wire arcs to the head. It's a simple test and the phenomenon is best seen in the dark.
If it looks like the problem lies in the infamous PD slow jets. I'd start by pouring an additive in the fueltank, a socalled fuel system cleaner. Make it a substantial dosis and pray it will clean forsaid jets. If it doesn't, you'll have to clear them manually, which is quite a job. Before that have the sync checked. I don't think there is a serious problem concerning the primary chain. Mine is in there (a CB500) for over 140.000 kms and I know of someone who had done 220.000km and still didn't have a problem.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 08:08:07 AM by Deltarider »
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2024, 08:28:36 AM »
It's not on 4 cylinders at idle, that's what it sounds like to me and that's usually because the idle circuit is blocked, once the carbs come off the idle circuit it runs on other jets so it would pull ok higher up the rev range. Test the pipes without blipping the throttle or they'll heat up from the other jets. Keep the revs below 2000 and test again.

Primary chains are normally buggered after 30-40K, that's a fact, rubbers around the same, unless your DeltaRider of course, who's legendary chain has world renown.  My 1972 500 has 167000 miles on it and it's had numerous primary chains, my 1971 500 has over 263000 miles on it and has also had numerous primary chains, both engines showed signs of the chain hitting the oil gallery even with regular changes, the 72 is apart ATM and will be modified this time to incorporate a primary chain tensioner in order to try and prolong it's life. If you need to replace the primary chain use the Kawasaki primary chain 92057-1011, it's normally half the price of the Honda one and is exactly the same. You must change the primary hub damping rubbers at the same time or it will wear out in half the time it should.

IF the clutch rubbers are buggered then that transmits that down the line and makes the primary chain sound even worse, you'll get transmission snatch as it gets worst, rolling on/off the throttle will become snatchier, I'm not saying it's 100% contributing, I'm just saying it's something to check.

Ozzybud you got 400 clutch rubbers off Ebay not 500/550, totally different shape. 500/550 ones are really hard to source.

If you replace the camchain fit the DID 219FTH chain instead of the normal DID 219H chain, the FTH is an heavy duty chain and much stronger than the H version, the shape of the FTH link plates means it runs more silently and wears the tensioner blade less as well. The only problem is finding an 88L FTH chain though. I bought a really expensive factory camchain splitter/riveter so I could cut down longer chains and rejoin them, it does such a good job it's impossible to tell which link has been done from the others.

Offline Ozzybud

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2024, 09:29:49 AM »
Contrary to Oddjob, the clutch basket rubbers can be shot regardless of mileage. Mine were completly dissentegrated at 22k. The breakdown of the rubber happens with many factors. Oil type,frequency of oil change, operating temperatures and environmental conditions. Plus they are pushing 50 years of age.
  My bike sounded a lot like yours. I really thought a rod bearing or piston pin was shot. No amount of carb sync or idle setting would lessen it. By pulling out the dipstick you can be sure the sound is coming from there.
  A bike running on 3 cylinders does not sound that bad
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2024, 09:54:44 AM »
The 400 is renowned for chewing up its basket rubbers, the 500/550 not so much. A lot depends on the shape, the 500/550 is a completely different shape to the 400, far more intricate.

It could be the basket but I’m not convinced it is. Sounds more like the primary chain to me, made worse by the poor running of the engine, if it’s not running right the chain will lash around far more.

The noise doesn’t go less when the engines under load and a sloppy basket would sound much quieter under load. The 500/550 basket uses shims as well to shim out lateral movement, that could also be a factor

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2024, 10:28:40 AM »
Don't worry about the primary chain. In my archives, I have several rider reports compiled of the experiences by many, many CB500/550 owners. None reported a problem with the primary chain. Zero. It is not uncommon to hear that chain. Does not mean it's shot. Owners did agree plugcaps and HT wires are the CB500/550s Achilles heel. 
The tests I suggest are very simple to do. For a start. Also see that the engine has warmed up sufficiently.
It's quite cold blooded by nature. A CB550K3 has a different behaviour in starts than the rest of the CB500/550 series. Usually right after the start rpm races up to 3000-4000 rpm and it needs the choke* much longer than the previous models.
* On the K3 the choke is partly a raised idle anyway (fast cam). It's something the earlier models did not have.
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2024, 11:10:06 AM »
Don't listen to Deltarider, he's an armchair mechanic with NO practical experience. All his evidence is anecdotal. I'm a trained Honda mechanic of many years and I can categorically state the biggest problem with the 500 engine is the primary chain, it's not an Achilles heel, it is however the part which produces the most noise generally. It's also why Honda changed the design for the 650 engine (which is essentially the same engine) and fitted a primary chain tensioner. The amount of lower crankcases with the oil gallery almost worn through I've seen is worrying, I really hope DR doesn't learn the hard way that ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, it's a new set of crankcases if the chain wear through at the very least, most likely a full engine lockup would occur with the top end just a lump of junk.

Granted your engine is low mileage but do you know if the speedos been changed by any of the previous owners, just because it says 18K doesn't mean it's done 18K. It's also 50 year old, the primary hub damping rubbers are probably rock hard by now, that makes the chain wear faster as it lashes about more.

Don't change it at your own peril.

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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2024, 12:28:25 PM »
[...] The bike is in very good condition and the engine seems to be running pretty good.
My problem is, that the engine makes a pronounced noise when idling [...]
The video shows a cold start. The sound seems to be getting less pronounced when the engine is warm but it never goes away completely. When driving everything feels completely normal and the sound goes away (because of higher rpm).
[...]
Elias
I ignore Oddjob's comments. I forgot to mention another simple test. I just reread the above by you. Since the bike seems to be running pretty good and your video shows a cold start, this is what I would do. Go for a ride and make sure the engine is warmed up really well by the time you return. This may take 20km. Now by turning the central idle speed adjust knob (which is under the tank on the carbs, a bit to the right side and in front of the rack) bring up the RPM to where the engine runs nicely and even. Then by turning the idle speed knob the other way, lowering the RPM, determine at what RPM the engine starts making weird noises. When your warmed up engine runs nicely say at a true 1200 rpm, not much is wrong. If it doesn't and - provided all plugs spark - it's a pound to a penny the idle jets are (partly) blocked. Carbs gone out of sync could also cause this, but at only 18.000 km I assume the sync is OK. If forsaid jets are partly blocked, you could try adding a generous amount of a fuel system cleaner to the fuel. If one or more of them are completely blocked, carbs have to be opened for further inspection. But once again: these engines have a reputation for being very coldblooded, so the engine has to be warmed up really well. You could post another video of your engine (well warmed up) running at 1200 rpm.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 12:44:38 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2024, 12:56:01 PM »
Ken is very right about primary chains, every 500 has wear to the main oil gallery from the primary chain to some degree and i also have seen nearly worn through.
Honda expected the hy=vo chain to self tension by climbing the gear teeth but this will only happen on a very smooth running engine, so not any of ours on the road!
The 550 cases are very slightly cast different and the chain does not hit as much as on the 500, but still does
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2024, 12:29:41 AM »
Bryanj, with all due respect, don't you think it makes sense to check the easy things first, just to rule out the usual suspects before we dive into the heart of the engine? There's not much lost by 1. verifying the rpm indicated are true, 2. the ignition is OK, all aspects, 3. the carburetion 4. etc. before we open the engine. I've gone trough the above mentioned rider's reports of CB500/550 owners again, in which they have listed all the repairs they had had. No one reported he had to renew the primary chain. Yes, they often make a noise, more often than not as a matter of fact, but here I am with mine with over 140.000kms. Yes, you can hear it. Does it worry me? Not really. It's not worse than when I bought the bike in 1980 and whenever mine is over say 1150 rpm, good driveability is present and that's what matters. If here in Holland someone had had that oil canal destroyed, I would have heard of it. You will remember that years ago I have volunteered to see to how far the chain will last. Realise that Honda continued the design up to the very last model, the CB550K4 in 1978. From that point of view, you will understand I advise to do the routine maintenance first. After all, blocked idle jets in the PD carbs the K3 have, is often the cause, as you yourself have reminded us of innumerous times. And it can make the engine sound horribly at idle.
Nobody can rule out something inside is wrong. The bike is 45 years old. Maybe it has run without oil, who knows? But the turbinelike sound I hear in the video when it's revved, sounds familiarly healthy to me for a K3.
The perfect idle some in the UK site strive for, is their choice. It nears a neurosis imo, but that's just an opinion. Some there will not give up before the engine runs like a switch watch. Well, I wish them luck. I use my bike for riding, not for sitting next to it in a deck chair to listen to its idle.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2024, 01:44:44 PM by Deltarider »
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2024, 02:16:29 AM »
Like i said the 550 is cast different and also i have seen mid mileage regularly, properly, serviced 500's still running ok BUT even those showed significant wear when inspected which can be done when the sump is removed to check oil pickup this being in the dealer service list at 24,000 miles from memory
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2024, 03:16:15 AM »
At no point did I say he had to change the primary chain, I initially said it sounded like it wasn't running on all 4, it doesn't rev cleanly either. Which to me sounds like a blocked idle circuit, either a blocked idle jet or jets or a blocked airway feeding this circuit. The rest was just information on what CAN cause the noises and advice on how to fix them. Yet you wade in with anecdotal evidence and claims of how long a primary chain should last, not exactly how long they do last before they become a problem, if the chain is lashing around so much it's not really a problem according to you BUT experience has shown they wear the oil gallery away, both mine and Bryans experience and TBH probably every other Honda mechanic that's worked on these engines. That doesn't seem to bother you?, fine, let your engine seize up, won't bother me at all but don't encourage others to let theirs risk seizing up. At the very least they should be warned what the risks are, whilst the chain is wearing away the oil gallery where do you think all those little pieces of metal are going to, in the oil is the answer. Through the screen as the mesh is not fine enough to screen those out, through the pump, scouring the rotor tips, then the filter will trap them most likely. It may not get all of the debris though so it could possibly run through the engine again and again, slowly wearing away other components. It's not certain this happens but there's a risk it will and if that risk can be avoided then why not do it. Most engines are coming apart around 30-40K for maintenance, either replacing rings or decoking the head etc so why not fix the other problems whilst you're in there.

My 500 with over 263000 miles (not KMs) on it has not been rebored, not had a single gearbox part, not had any clutch parts and it was raced back in the 70/80s, does that mean it's still pristine inside?, no, it's very tired now, I rode it last year (my brother in law seems to have permanently borrowed it) and it felt pretty awful TBH, a far cry from the bike I lent him over 10 years ago. However he'll refresh the engine shortly and it will be back to new again after.

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2024, 03:59:44 AM »
Those are the PD carbs that block for a pastime
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2024, 05:00:16 AM »
If you've not listened to the video Bryan I'd be interested to know what you think. To me the stuttering, as it tries to rev, indicates a blocked jet somewhere, which makes it sound like it's really only running on 3 or even 2 cylinders, as soon as it revs above the idle circuit all 4 cylinders chime in. The knocking is quite loud but could just be because the engine is so unbalanced due to the carbs. But have a listen and see what you think.

Offline Deltarider

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2024, 05:43:47 AM »
If you've not listened to the video Bryan I'd be interested to know what you think. To me the stuttering, as it tries to rev, indicates a blocked jet somewhere, which makes it sound like it's really only running on 3 or even 2 cylinders, as soon as it revs above the idle circuit all 4 cylinders chime in. The knocking is quite loud but could just be because the engine is so unbalanced due to the carbs. But have a listen and see what you think.
Now what you write here, I can agree on, be it that I always start with checking the ignition as a routine. I thought it worth mentioning that once I have worked on a K3 that didn't show 1100 rpm on my known good tach before it had reached 1400 on the onboard ND tacho. Not that long ago in the UK site someone had a similar experience as he had mistakingly put a CB750 tach on his 550 and he then tried to set an idle. Also my advice to first try it with a fuel system cleaner (the stuff worked a miracle in my carbs many years ago) is a simple step. As long as the idle jets are not completely blocked, you have at least a chance the additive clears it from there. As always I'm all for the simple steps first.
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Offline bryanj

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2024, 09:51:25 AM »
As i have said before i cant watch videos on my things, dont have anything to do with any social? media either
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Offline dave500

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2024, 02:52:05 PM »
I can watch the video but no sound,id go over your ignition get it squared away perfect and if possible sync the carbs,it may or may not need the carbs removed but i cant hear the video.

Offline galoebi

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Re: CB550K weird noise at idle
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2024, 05:47:24 AM »
Thanks for all the answers!
I will test for the sound when the dipstick is removed. When the weather gets better I will also warm up the engine properly and send a video when its warm.