Author Topic: Difference between the four PD series carbs  (Read 636 times)

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Offline Turbogrimace

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Difference between the four PD series carbs
« on: June 29, 2024, 02:33:09 PM »
I have several racks of PD carbs and some miscellaneous parts. While I was looking through them, I noticed a few differences. One obvious difference was that the k model carbs had the return spring on the idle rpm adjuster plate while the f model carbs used a torsion spring on the slide shaft. I went over to cmsnl and found the different pd model numbers for each f and k model in 77 and 78. The carb assemblies have different part numbers. So I'm wondering if there are any major differences between all of the pd carbs. Is one better than the other, or are the differences just in the factory jetting and a few other minor things.

77 were PD41A (k model) and PD41B (F model)
78 were PD42A (F model) and PD42B (K model)

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Offline bryanj

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2024, 03:15:27 PM »
Dont forget the 550K3 had PD carbs as well but with no sccelerator pump
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2024, 06:04:27 PM »
On the 750 the PD series carbs were done to ass-wage ;)  the US DOT more than anything else, since the roundtops were/are notorious for being overly rich (easily) and easily modified, which no government official can stomach...the PD are more precise mixers and generally leak less, while also being harder to modify both in adjustments and jetting.

In the 500/550K1-2 bikes the simplified PD carbs were used to make a wider powerband and more controllable low-speed experience. But by the 550F series the more restrictive versions of those PD carbs showed up, too. It was said at the time that the 4-screw bowls of the PD-style carbs "tended to make 'tampering' less prolific" (sic) in official discussions about them.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2024, 08:37:46 AM »
In the 500/550K1-2 bikes the simplified PD carbs were used to make a wider powerband and more controllable low-speed experience. But by the 550F series the more restrictive versions of those PD carbs showed up, too. It was said at the time that the 4-screw bowls of the PD-style carbs "tended to make 'tampering' less prolific" (sic) in official discussions about them.
As far as the CB500/550s, PD carbs did not show up untill the CB500K3 and the CB550K3 which arrived in 1977. All CB550Fs had the oldstyle 069A carbs. Here's an overview I made of the CB500/550 oldstyle carbs, knowing 627B, 649A, 022A, 087A and 069A. So far I have not received any suggestion for change in spite of me asking for it.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2024, 01:06:28 PM »
The multi-link slide positioners (as found in the 627/022/069 etc. series) and the screwed-down covers were the 'signature' of the PD-style carbs. While not as tightly jetted (nor as well manufactured) as the 'real' PD carbs that came after 1975 in all the SOHC4 bikes, they were the forerunners of the PD family, bred from Honda's roadracers (and are seen on the prototype 750 bikes as well). They are much more expensive to manufacture, which was likely where the 'roundtop' 750 and 'copycat' (i.e. those press-in O-ringed jets) versions in the early 500/550 series got used instead. The jetting family of the early 500/550 carbs came right from the successful CB350 series jetting, so Honda/Keihin didn't have to make a fully-engineered jetting system for the early mid-Four. The showroom prices were Honda's driving force in those days: the 500 debuted at $1095 (the 450 twin was then $995) and became $1195 by the 550K1, but jumped to $1345 (or $1395 west of the Mississippi River in the USA) when the PD carbs with the more accurate screw-in mainjets appeared. Honda tried to offset some of these costs in other ways (like by cheapening the swingarm pivot parts, using wheel bearings with just one side sealed, reducing wiring and pushbutton controls, and 4-1 exhaust), but it still meant more cost due largely to the carbs. This happened with the 750 at the F2/K7 series as well. Cutting threads in carb bodies is not a cheap thing to do!

In terms of mixing performance, the later PD carbs (with the screw-in mainjets) are much more accurate mixers, although they came from the factory set quite lean for emissions reasons, so they are often perceived as not making as much power. These were also the first carbs on the 750s that would not over-feed during throttle shutoff, which caused lots of fouled sparkplugs in city riding, especially. Right from the beginning of the 500/550 carbs we had troubles with the O-rings leaking like the CB/CL350s had done after about 2 seasons of riding, and it was because of the leaking O-rings on the mainjets - or sometimes the mount where they plug in would warp, making it leak fuel. We replaced lots of those little O-rings, sometimes with softer durometer rubber (if the hole was warped) to make them seal again. When they became screw-in jets in the 550 this problem ceased altogether.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Oddjob

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2024, 04:22:50 AM »
Right from the beginning of the 500/550 carbs we had troubles with the O-rings leaking like the CB/CL350s had done after about 2 seasons of riding, and it was because of the leaking O-rings on the mainjets - or sometimes the mount where they plug in would warp, making it leak fuel. We replaced lots of those little O-rings, sometimes with softer durometer rubber (if the hole was warped) to make them seal again. When they became screw-in jets in the 550 this problem ceased altogether.

Interesting Mark, so as we 500/550 owners of these old style carbs are currently replacing the main jet orings with Viton rings and Viton rings being even harder than Nitrile rings, would you expect the problem to occur again?

I've personally never had that problem on all the 500/550s I've owned, in fact some of the main jets were stuck so hard in the tube they needed some effort to dislodge. Maybe it's because our weather is less variable, never gets too hot or too cold as a rule due to the gulf stream.

Offline Turbogrimace

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2024, 04:14:10 PM »
Lots of good info. I guess I should have specified these are all cb750 carbs. So is there really any big difference between the 77/78 or F/K PD carbs?

Also, is it really that much more difficult to tune the PD carbs? I've messed around with a few sets on bikes and found that it was a bit easier to get a good tune throughout the throttle range.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2024, 04:46:36 PM »
Right from the beginning of the 500/550 carbs we had troubles with the O-rings leaking like the CB/CL350s had done after about 2 seasons of riding, and it was because of the leaking O-rings on the mainjets - or sometimes the mount where they plug in would warp, making it leak fuel. We replaced lots of those little O-rings, sometimes with softer durometer rubber (if the hole was warped) to make them seal again. When they became screw-in jets in the 550 this problem ceased altogether.

Interesting Mark, so as we 500/550 owners of these old style carbs are currently replacing the main jet orings with Viton rings and Viton rings being even harder than Nitrile rings, would you expect the problem to occur again?

I've personally never had that problem on all the 500/550s I've owned, in fact some of the main jets were stuck so hard in the tube they needed some effort to dislodge. Maybe it's because our weather is less variable, never gets too hot or too cold as a rule due to the gulf stream.

I tried some harder O-rings in some weathered (I guess that would be the right term?) mainjet holder sites, but was beaten when the pot metal just crumbled away overnight. I had 2 sets from that owner, to try to make 1 good set, but both of the #2 carbs had bad holes for their mainjets. One was already cracked and wouldn't hold the jet snugly, and it leaked fuel thru the crack, past the mainjet, so that cylinder was constantly fouling plugs (just that one!). I got a usable #2 from another SOHC4 member who happened to live here (nearby) at the time and had some in his shed, which ultimately 'saved' the set.

Later I was talking with a seals engineer from the Shuttle program (he was one of them who told NASA to not launch the shuttle that cold day) and I mentioned about this sort of situation under the auspices of it being "one of the machines we were building" (lie!) and he volunteered that softer durometer rubber seals are often used in an existing design if the mounting materials around the seal were 'suspect'. So, I went that way the next time. In some cases it works, but I have found in the 500/550 early carbs that when the metal starts going bad (it was attacked by MTBE during the 1990s) that it has also etched away from the hole. This means a slightly larger O-ring is needed to do the same job, and a softer rubber will fill in the irregularities if they are not a sharp-edged groove, or the like. This made me go to my local seal supplier and had them make some O-rings that were 0.1mm thicker rubber, and some in a non-standard size, too. These have come out to be 1.1x4.0 and 1.2x4.0 sizes for those that are eaten away by the MTBE of old, and 3.8x1.2 for most of the others. The groove site measures 1.04mm between the centered jet and the wall of the mainjet holder, and the mainjet's groove bottom measured between 3.92 (the smallest I had then) and 4.00mm (the largest I had then), and there is 0 pressure involved, so I arbitrarily settled on those O-ring sizes. It's not terribly expensive to have one own mold made, but takes up to 4 weeks to get the O-rings from it, so it is a tedious process - and you have to get at least 100 made in each 'run'. So, after a while it gets more expensive...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 07:44:41 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2024, 08:11:59 PM »
Lots of good info. I guess I should have specified these are all cb750 carbs. So is there really any big difference between the 77/78 or F/K PD carbs?

Also, is it really that much more difficult to tune the PD carbs? I've messed around with a few sets on bikes and found that it was a bit easier to get a good tune throughout the throttle range.
One difference I've just found between the K7 and F2 carbs is the float bowl vent: on the 41A, it's a teeny tiny hole on the side of the carb, while on the 41B it's a spigot with a teeny tiny hole. ;) I believe that these teeny tiny vents are too small, and contribute to a lot of problems with the PD carbs, especially when trying to perform the clear tube test. ;D
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,195195.0.html
« Last Edit: July 01, 2024, 08:14:56 PM by scottly »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2024, 08:24:38 PM »
Lots of good info. I guess I should have specified these are all cb750 carbs. So is there really any big difference between the 77/78 or F/K PD carbs?

Also, is it really that much more difficult to tune the PD carbs? I've messed around with a few sets on bikes and found that it was a bit easier to get a good tune throughout the throttle range.
One difference I've just found between the K7 and F2 carbs is the float bowl vent: on the 41A, it's a teeny tiny hole on the side of the carb, while on the 41B it's a spigot with a teeny tiny hole. ;) I believe that these teeny tiny vents are too small, and contribute to a lot of problems with the PD carbs, especially when trying to perform the clear tube test. ;D
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,195195.0.html

I think you're right! It's even bigger when buzzing along at 75+ MPH. But then, the bikes weren't supposed to be going that fast....right?  ::)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2024, 12:31:03 PM »
Did the 750K PD's have the accelerator pump? I know the F and A versions did, but I thought the K version did not.
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Offline scottly

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2024, 01:11:03 PM »
My K7 PD's have the accelerator pump.
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Offline newday777

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Re: Difference between the four PD series carbs
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2024, 06:39:59 PM »
My K7 PD's have the accelerator pump.
My K8 has the pump too.
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My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A