Topic: reviewing an old post of How to tell if your bike is running too hot...

[Redline it]

it's filled with usable yet varied details from replies that complicate which would be the best selection of the many different opinions. taking it as a whole to filter what one would be looking ends up with at least for me glassy eyed daze to absorb it all. so many variables, appreceated.

what i'm shooting for is an infrared scan of individual cyclinder differences taken at easy targets such as the first inch of exposed header pipe, to get an idea of either lean conditions or valve settings and their operational heath. again that could be lost in multiple opinions on case scenarios specifically.

scientifically positioned two outside cyclinders and 2 inside, i'm sure has some differences in the transmission of heat exchange on a perfectly running tuned motor. although close in my mind, probably will never get the perfect point of tuned. even where the chrome has been lost more on the first header curve of one or 2 pipes could change the running temps, unless drastic, i'm not hoping to get that detailed.

in the heated summer air of 80to90 degrees couple laps around the block no's 1 and 4 are quite higher than 2 and 3. no ticking, although the fins (again not a showroom finish on account of water, brake fluid corrosions) they seem to get a dull dark tint around the fins, last night was between 50 to 100 degrees consistent differences between the outer and inner 2 cylinder pairs. it was the first attempt. the motor has 10,600 miles onit and runs alot better than i was expecting from seized carbs and the sluggish oil circulations at the cam level, they've both been restored to or close to factory responses. i'll take some more readings and for "points of reference," temps will be taken just outside of the finned header clamps, on the exhaust pipe. possibly in stages of time.  i might even try a separate sample from another bike with close engine wear or approx hours, just for reference comparison.

[willbird]

One thing about measuring IR temps is that some surfaces emit more than others, so a brightly polished "block" or cylinder whatever your preferred term is may emit differently than a matte colored one with barn find level oxidation. Same true for sure with header pipes maybe. Molten lead alloy does not work well with an IR gun so folks will float something different on it and then check that material with the IR gun....one example.

Bill

[Redline it]

i kind of figured there'd be a difference in the finishes, but so i took it for a ride, warming up in the driveway less than 1 minute the outside ir readings at the pipes were 150 more than the inside 2. went ridiing nothing hard, the outside temps 1 and 4 are 200 degrees hotter than 3,4. 480s out and close to 280s inside. the bike isn't overheating, as running it, it's got power thruout the rpm scale, i got another one in the garage only it's got a kerker on it, and see what they do. i know it's gotta be a violent flame front, that seems like a big difference, that could cause head leaks from outside moving more than inside. thanks for the info.

[willbird]

That is interesting stuff :-).

[Redline it]

One thing about measuring IR temps is that some surfaces emit more than others, so a brightly polished "block" or cylinder whatever your preferred term is may emit differently than a matte colored one with barn find level oxidation. Same true for sure with header pipes maybe.

Molten lead alloy does not work well with an IR gun so folks will float something different on it and then check that material with the IR gun....one example.

i wonder why that is, is it the reflectivity of the molten lead alloy? so a tunsten float might work. think i'm gonna pry around some more before riding it till some metal burns. plugs don't look over heated. the longest i've riden was about 5 miles out and back. i checked the valve gaps and some were pretty loose like 5 thou. so i got it pretty close to .002 intake and .003 ex. might be too tight. i synced the carbs couple weeks ago, and one was pretty low and touching the adjuster screw and the motor fell on its face and trying to get it back wouldn't respond for a day, then all of a sudden it started working again. that, is interesting stuff that i can't figure out at all. so i just left it like it was. i'd sure hate to burn a valve from wingin it. maybe the 2 inside temps are too cool? 200 degrees different has to be a good sign that something isn't right. oh, one thing i did before i got it running was one of the condensers seemed not to be functioning, no, or intermittant firing. so from the parts crate i found a condenser, it was a bit larger than stock. but tried that and it ran after and since then. i think it was honda or a datsun 620 condenser. 4into1 probably sells them, i'd roll up some foil in cigarette butt dipped in candle wax before attempting that.

Bill

[Finnigan]

4 temp rated thermocouples with 3 ft leads, metal hose clamps and a cheap 4 channel reader - take guess work out of polished areas and measure in direct contact

[Redline it]

4 temp rated thermocouples with 3 ft leads, metal hose clamps and a cheap 4 channel reader - take guess work out of polished areas and measure in direct contact

these replies are certainly helping out with new ideas i've never thought about, i'm just not that technically advanced, checking for compression for instance, of the 10s of times i've done it, the results are below minimum pressures but consistent across all for cyl. yet no oil consumptions, starts and runs just fine, leak downs and sync's, it takes more time trying to make the devices and then they still don[t work right. going by ear now has  to be going by feel can't hear very much these days. maybe i should just join the sierra club and blm agency and send them donations or site support. 50 bucks a year these days isn't much, 12 40oz king cobra beers is about all.

the original question was if 200 degrees hotter outside cylinders of 480 degrees vs 280 inside cylinders was too much, taking the sample at the stock header pipes before the first bend. if at all i can't figure it out, the fact that the 2 differences are affecting the 2 coils controling the spark of the sets could lead to a possible problem to look at. just thinking out loud.

[Finnigan]

I've only checked mine at idle when warmed up for 10 min and all 4 exhausts are within 15 degrees of each other.  When you adjust the air mixture screw for idle and have a temp gauge on the header you're controlling you can watch the temp go up and down in real time with maybe 2-3 second delay.  Richer runs cooler exhaust while leaner runs hotter exhaust.

Not much help but maybe a data point you guide you.

[willbird]

I see the Igrill has four probes and they can go as high as 572F temp :-), probes will tolerate 716F. I have played with an older 2 probe iGrill and it was able to export a data log as a csv file which you can import into excel and graph the data pretty easily. iGrill will bluetooth to a phone or tablet.

[Redline it]

so are the probes and leads one piece like the length can't be changed  by the user? and they're separate from the reader? like cooking 4 steaks the ?reader handles all of them? and the prices are we talking 100.00+ to cook steaks? you just clamp the probe to the exhaust? i thought you were just busting my chops.  i didn't have a clue. igrill narrowed it down some.

hey thanks i'll try to check into that and to return the favor, the best way to cook a fat loaded steak is load some juniper bush and branches and dried palmtree leaves on the bottom in any kind of bbq. and immdiately put a steak in the flames. turn it when it's been engulfed in fire for a couple minutes, black on one side and flip it on still flaming wood, another couple minutes when the steak is on fire it comes out burnt on the outside and rare in the inside, the whole process takes about 10 or 15 minutes. no charcoal lighter, no bricketts. apple or almond works too. it's environment friendly.

[willbird]

so are the probes and leads one piece like the length can't be changed  by the user? and they're separate from the reader? like cooking 4 steaks the ?reader handles all of them? and the prices are we talking 100.00+ to cook steaks? you just clamp the probe to the exhaust? i thought you were just busting my chops.  i didn't have a clue. igrill narrowed it down some.

hey thanks i'll try to check into that and to return the favor, the best way to cook a fat loaded steak is load some juniper bush and branches and dried palmtree leaves on the bottom in any kind of bbq. and immdiately put a steak in the flames. turn it when it's been engulfed in fire for a couple minutes, black on one side and flip it on still flaming wood, another couple minutes when the steak is on fire it comes out burnt on the outside and rare in the inside, the whole process takes about 10 or 15 minutes. no charcoal lighter, no bricketts. apple or almond works too. it's environment friendly.

Yes the leads are integral to the probes. There are a ton of ways to broadcast the temp of the smoker/grill as well as the internal temp of the meat, iGrill is just one of them. Steaks I like to reverse sear on a weber kettle mostly. I have messed with souse vide and a cast iron skillet too :-).

For smoking brisket the internal temp is just a rough metric, using a meat thermometer as a probe to poke it tells me when it is actually done.

[willbird]

I have looked at data logging in general and being able to log 4 channels of temperature data for hours, and export as CSV for $129 plus the price of 2 more probes is actually really cheap price wise.

[Don R]

 An alternative to the temp sensor is a wide band O2 sensor. Mine ran about $400 but I had won that much contingency money from auto meter. I'm using one with an exhaust probe that I made, it seems to work well, with a set of 4-4 no number pipes I have a drilled baffle that I can move from pipe to pipe.  My first attempt wasn't seal welded and leaking air gave me erroneous readings. 
 This pic is the first try, isn't welded or cut to length. The gauge is in heating mode before engine start, it gets power from the battery charger plug.
 

[willbird]

An alternative to the temp sensor is a wide band O2 sensor. Mine ran about $400 but I had won that much contingency money from auto meter. I'm using one with an exhaust probe that I made, it seems to work well, with a set of 4-4 no number pipes I have a drilled baffle that I can move from pipe to pipe.  My first attempt wasn't seal welded and leaking air gave me erroneous readings. 
 This pic is the first try, isn't welded or cut to length. The gauge is in heating mode before engine start, it gets power from the battery charger plug.

I have one in a box yet that I have not fired up, was planning to drill the header collector and weld in a bung for the sensor. Even cooked up a way to power it from a Milwauki M18 battery if the bike electrical system did not have enough extra. The wideband only gives us an average though and will not help us if we have one cylinder doing something strange, still very useful information. I have the Delkevic header on my K2 now so I need a stainless bung.

Found these online, they are a header tube surface temperature thermocouple.

https://thesensorconnection.com/product/exhaust-manifold-or-pipe-surface-thermocouple-temperature-sensor?v=615

Dug around a little to try to find out if iGrill is using a type K thermocouple or not and did not find an answer yet, I still think it is a cool 4 channel logger for a mere $129.

[Finnigan]

Used these I the past, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018QHQSB8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[willbird]

Used these I the past, https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B018QHQSB8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

https://a.co/d/0gl9KG5T

4 channel logger at the link, that would work with the probes I linked earlier, but those probes are $50 a crack tho. $ for data value the wideband is probably a better buy.

Bill

[Finnigan]

you keeping this on the bike permanently? or a one time check to make sure idle tuning is good?

22$ sounds like a better deal to me, the meter can switch between thermocouple types so there's no reason to get 200$ worth of probes.

Maybe I missed something...

[MauiK3]

O2 sensors on 4-4 exhaust would need the connector blocked? Or are we just looking for a trend and not exact, isolated data?

[willbird]

you keeping this on the bike permanently? or a one time check to make sure idle tuning is good?

22$ sounds like a better deal to me, the meter can switch between thermocouple types so there's no reason to get 200$ worth of probes.

Maybe I missed something...

I'm doubtful that really cheap thermocouples will survive. The $50 a crack ones are actually made to clamp to a header tube or exhaust manifold. I'm really just looking over what is avail. Cyl to cyl differences are one of the last things usually explored...the cost on most engines to do individual fuel ratio and or EGT is after all 200% to 400% more costly than just working with an average of all the cylinders on a collector.

[Redline it]

i got a volt meter long time ago and it has one of those thermocouple things you plug into, i never used it, but now i'm getting an  idea of what they are. so i have 1 and if it works and there's 200' difference still, no big hurry to get 3 more until i figure out why the head differences are occuring, checked the plugs they all look fine. a little coating of a carbon, not wet, one of the electodes didn't have a mark like around the bend. timing is ok on 1&4 but 2&3 are just on the left double marks advanced. and it's vibrating quite a bit. i'll try to dial in those 2.

[willbird]

i got a volt meter long time ago and it has one of those thermocouple things you plug into, i never used it, but now i'm getting an  idea of what they are. so i have 1 and if it works and there's 200' difference still, no big hurry to get 3 more until i figure out why the head differences are occuring, checked the plugs they all look fine. a little coating of a carbon, not wet, one of the electodes didn't have a mark like around the bend. timing is ok on 1&4 but 2&3 are just on the left double marks advanced. and it's vibrating quite a bit. i'll try to dial in those 2.

Working in Industry I far prefer RTD to Thermocouple, they are way easier to trouble shoot, an RTD will typically read 110 ohms at room temperature. To check a TC you need a device that will read it, we have some that will both simulate a TC to send a specified temp to whatever is reading the temperature, and it will read one too. But a plain old multimeter I have with me all the time anyway.

For those that do not know a Thermocouple generates a voltage signal, while an RTD changes resistance based upon the temperature. A thermister works generally the same as an RTD but overall is not as accurate, quite a few devices use thermisters to measure ambient temperature.

Usually the least expensive option for the types of sensors we are talking about is to find an OEM automotive one though. Economy of scale drives the price down.

[Redline it]

i got a volt meter long time ago and it has one of those thermocouple things you plug into, i never used it, but now i'm getting an  idea of what they are. so i have 1 and if it works and there's 200' difference still, no big hurry to get 3 more until i figure out why the head differences are occuring, checked the plugs they all look fine. a little coating of a carbon, not wet, one of the electodes didn't have a mark like around the bend. timing is ok on 1&4 but 2&3 are just on the left double marks advanced. and it's vibrating quite a bit. i'll try to dial in those 2.

Working in Industry I far prefer RTD to Thermocouple, they are way easier to trouble shoot, an RTD will typically read 110 ohms at room temperature. To check a TC you need a device that will read it, we have some that will both simulate a TC to send a specified temp to whatever is reading the temperature, and it will read one too. But a plain old multimeter I have with me all the time anyway.

For those that do not know a Thermocouple generates a voltage signal, while an RTD changes resistance based upon the temperature. A thermister works generally the same as an RTD but overall is not as accurate, quite a few devices use thermisters to measure ambient temperature.

Usually the least expensive option for the types of sensors we are talking about is to find an OEM automotive one though. Economy of scale drives the price down.

going out on a limb here, not to change the subject but, "would you still ride a bike that has 200+ degrees difference in one of the firing pairs of cylinders?"  i see the pipes where the corrosion ends and tapers back into the chrome plate, on the chrome it's turning blue, not alot but it's blue. i don't "hear" ticking, but that might be from a loss of hearing. a valve adj lock nut on another bike fell off and it was sitting next to the valve spring, so i got that back on, only noticed it when i took the adj cap off..first 5 minute test ride again after that and another nut came off and fell into to the outside spillway that i think passes through the crank case on the outside, only the nut got stuck at the top of the spillway. so i started tightening them more. but both times bike ran just fine, i couldn't tell a difference, course it may not have changed the adj bolt or valve adjustments, of course i couldn't hear it if it did.