Author Topic: Honda 450 DOHC idling woe  (Read 1021 times)

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Offline Old Moe Toe

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Honda 450 DOHC idling woe
« on: July 03, 2024, 11:59:11 PM »
Hello, I recently bought a very tidy low mileage (under 8000) 1972 K5 450.
It had been sitting for a long time and the inside of the fuel tank was a little rusty.
It cleaned up very nicely with phosphorous acid, also the petcock and carbs have been cleaned thoroughly.
On first start up it fired right away but was revving much too high.
The stop screws on both carbs are turned all the way out so there is even a gap between the screw and the stop, also there is free play in both the throttle cables. Pilot screws are set at 1 1/4 turns out.
I did notice when I pushed down on the arm the stop screws are on on of each of the carbs, (closing the throttle valves more than the normally closed position), that the revs would drop to a near acceptable idle speed but of course one can't ride the bike like this.
Hoping there are folk on this forum who know more about these carbs than I do who may have some advice as to what might be going on.
Cheers

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Honda 450 DOHC idling woe
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2024, 10:11:03 AM »
The cause of the old 'runaway idle' in the 450 isn't even in the carbs(!).
It is in the spark advance. The engine runs quite hot, and those 450s that were ridden mostly in heavy traffic overheated the springs of the spark advancer and softened them a LOT. This makes the weights hit full advance by as little as 1400 RPM, so the first startup locks it into full advance, making idle below 2000 RPM impossible.

So...start by cutting off 1/2 turn of both of those advancer springs: when you look at them you'll see they are likely quite soft and loose. It usually takes more like 1 full turn cut off both springs, or more, before it acts normally again.

HOWEVER - this presumes the stock air filters and a functioning crossover tube with good seals is in place. If not, the bike won't idle, period. The CV pistons in those carbs are extremely fast, and they 'talk' to one another thru the stock airbox cross-connection pipe, such that when one side is flowing already this lowers the air pressure inside the box (intake stroke on one side) which makes the opposite side's piston move more slowly than normal to damp it's rise.  Since the cam drives this engine with 2 power strokes 90 degrees apart, this cycle begins again at the next idle intake. The mass of the crankshaft being unpowered for 270 degrees then slows the crank speed slightly for the beginning of the next intake cycle. This has ALWAYS puzzled the Honda mechanics: a very smart Honda rep explained it to me in 1970, after which it made perfect sense.

The bottom line is: if the stock airbox arrangement is ripped apart and 'pod' air filters are installed (or foam replacements in the stock positions) the bike won't idle. Worse: if foam air filters are installed it will only start when cold, and is nearly impossible to restart hot (like at the gas station after fillup).

The bugaboo that is selling many of the 450s today is our gasolines. It burns so slowly now that the engine's cam timing is a little too aggressive. Try using Regular grade instead, and you'll find that old gas (like last year's lawn mower gas) will run better than new gas will. This will help. Also, add some oil to the gas in the tank, especially if it is new, to lube those big rings and valves: they rely upon the missing lead in the gas in this design.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Offline newday777

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Re: Honda 450 DOHC idling woe
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2024, 11:04:55 AM »
Interesting
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Old Moe Toe

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Re: Honda 450 DOHC idling woe
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2024, 03:32:22 PM »
What a fabulous reply Hondaman, thank you. I will look into that.
Regards Brad